Science vs. Christian

Robert6671

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The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Look at the first two lines of Genesis

Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.
 

HTacianas

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The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Look at the first two lines of Genesis

Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.

Let's stop saying "science vs. Christian". Mainly because there is no such thing. Let's call it "science vs. A minority of people who don't know any better". That is a more accurate description.

Origen, writing circa 200 AD, disputed the idea of six literal days of creation based solely on the wording of Genesis. There has never been a defined teaching on the age of the earth within Christianity. That idea has only been around for about 100 years and was concocted by a group of laymen.

There was a Christian priest during the 1920s and 30s or so who devised what he called his Hypothesis of the Primordial Atom to describe the origins of the universe. His ideas were ridiculed by the scientists of his time and his Theory was laughingly referred to as The Big Bang Theory. His name was Fr Georges LeMaitre. Look him up.
 
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Halbhh

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The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Look at the first two lines of Genesis

Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.

We are not told how long a time passed during verse 1 before the moment in verse 2.

It could have been any length of time.

It is not revealed to us. That's because the mere quantity of time is very trivial ultimately, and this chapter is about deeper and more meaningful things, that God created all the Universe, and made Earth as our home "very good" for us as a home.

Finding out how much older the Universe is than Earth is only a quest for detailed information, relatively trivial compared to the Bible.

But if a believer asserts it was zero time or little time in verse 1, that's an added assumption or idea that is not in the Bible, and can destroy the weak faith of some people, and prevent some others from ever learning about God, since it would seem to prove Genesis chapter 1 false.

Genesis chapter 1 is true, and the Universe happens to be very old we can learn by simple geometry and measurement of the speed of light.

All agree that Christian faith is faith in Christ Jesus, risen, as your savior and Redeemer.

Matthew 7:24-27 is the real foundation for enduring.

Build on the rock Christ says to build on.
 
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Acts2:38

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Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.

Well if you just look at the first 2 lines, I can see why one would get confused.

The first day happened in verses 1-5, not 1-2. Also notice "And" which joins or adds onto what it being mentioned.

Next, almost the entire OT is written in Hebrew except 6 verses in Aramaic. Genesis 1 is all Hebrew.

The Hebrew word for day, is Yowm. Yowm does have a few different uses, which is why people get thrown off and think that it means entire "ages", "periods of time", "thousands of years in between", but it can also mean a simple 24 hour day.

Context is what matters on how to apply Yowm (day).

"evening and the morning were the... ""... day"

Ereb - evening, means exactly that, evening.

Boqer - morning, means exactly that, morning.

So the context, evening and morning is quite literal. Then you apply Yowm (day) to evening and morning, and the Yowm context changes to one simple 24 hour day.

Supporting scripture Exodus 20:11, Exodus 31:17

Just thought I should throw this information out there because I as a Christian believe it was 6 literal days, not thousands of years.

Also, I don't believe science contradicts God, the scriptures, or anything of the like on the subject. In fact, quite the opposite.
 
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Robert6671

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Well if you just look at the first 2 lines, I can see why one would get confused.

The first day happened in verses 1-5, not 1-2. Also notice "And" which joins or adds onto what it being mentioned.

Next, almost the entire OT is written in Hebrew except 6 verses in Aramaic. Genesis 1 is all Hebrew.

The Hebrew word for day, is Yowm. Yowm does have a few different uses, which is why people get thrown off and think that it means entire "ages", "periods of time", "thousands of years in between", but it can also mean a simple 24 hour day.

Context is what matters on how to apply Yowm (day).

"evening and the morning were the... ""... day"

Ereb - evening, means exactly that, evening.

Boqer - morning, means exactly that, morning.

So the context, evening and morning is quite literal. Then you apply Yowm (day) to evening and morning, and the Yowm context changes to one simple 24 hour day.

Supporting scripture Exodus 20:11, Exodus 31:17

Just thought I should throw this information out there because I as a Christian believe it was 6 literal days, not thousands of years.

Also, I don't believe science contradicts God, the scriptures, or anything of the like on the subject. In fact, quite the opposite.

Thank you, I think you misunderstand what I am saying, a good many Christians believe 6 to 7 thousand years old. That we know for a fact is wrong, that the universe and the earth is billions of years old carbon dating and other ways of telling the age of something tells us that. Now I am sure there are arguments saying that nothing is 100 percent accurate and that would be true but they can come close. I think the biggest problem that science has with the bible is much that is considered to be biblical fact has been proven otherwise. I think you can find truth in the bible, I believe 100 percent it is a good guide to having a meaning relationship with god. I also take into account that the writers of the book existed thousands of years ago, believed the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe. They believed diseases were punishments from god when they were caused by germs. The people who wrote those books had know idea how far mankind would go. We can study history going back 10's of thousands of years. I take human error, the primitive ignorant beliefs of iron age people into account when reading the bible. I believe the new testament to be more historically accurate.
 
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Tone

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Thank you, I think you misunderstand what I am saying, a good many Christians believe 6 to 7 thousand years old. That we know for a fact is wrong, that the universe and the earth is billions of years old carbon dating and other ways of telling the age of something tells us that. Now I am sure there are arguments saying that nothing is 100 percent accurate and that would be true but they can come close. I think the biggest problem that science has with the bible is much that is considered to be biblical fact has been proven otherwise. I think you can find truth in the bible, I believe 100 percent it is a good guide to having a meaning relationship with god. I also take into account that the writers of the book existed thousands of years ago, believed the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe. They believed diseases were punishments from god when they were caused by germs. The people who wrote those books had know idea how far mankind would go. We can study history going back 10's of thousands of years. I take human error, the primitive ignorant beliefs of iron age people into account when reading the bible. I believe the new testament to be more historically accurate.

Yeah, those primitive folks didn't know about those atom bombs we advanced folks know about...
 
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trophy33

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Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years
No. Vast majority of Christians accept that Genesis is not a scientific book and leaves scientific dating of the universe to scientists. Also, many scientists are Christians.

This dilemma exists only in a small, but very vocal group - young earth creationists - who are being active mostly in the USA and on the internet.
 
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Acts2:38

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I think you misunderstand what I am saying, a good many Christians believe 6 to 7 thousand years old.

No I didnt misunderstand. I posted my evidence to those who believe that. My evidence wasn't really directed at you more than readers of the thread. I was merely just discussing with you.

Like when I said the part of "if one just reads those 2 lines" then of course they will draw their own conclusion, instead of that which the scriptures tell us. It's like cherry picking scripture to fit ones needs instead of the actual facts. They need to look at ALL the scripture to get the context of whats going on and being said.

That we know for a fact is wrong, that the universe and the earth is billions of years old carbon dating and other ways of telling the age of something tells us that. Now I am sure there are arguments saying that nothing is 100 percent accurate and that would be true but they can come close.

It's interesting you bring up carbon dating techniques. There was a study a little while back in with out of 400 machines around the world, 385 or so were incorrectly recording the actual date. Carbon dating has been found, unreliable.

The world just doesn't care about the facts, nor do they care to spread such news of their machines being unreliable.

They believed diseases were punishments from god when they were caused by germs.

Not all of them. The book of Job shows us an example.

The people who wrote those books had know idea how far mankind would go.

Actually, the did. God told Abraham and others, quite a bit of information, that was written by Moses, who obviously would then have to know thousands of years after the fact. At least everything that was important anyway. I don't think telling them about the internet would be of any importance.

I take human error, the primitive ignorant beliefs of iron age people into account when reading the bible.

A shame. Scripture is God breathed 2 Timothy 3:16. That means all scripture is from God, and he used holy men 2 Peter 1:20-21 to accomplish this task.

So everything in scripture is 100% accurate, if one believes in God and His authority and power. The bible actually has no contradictions, although mere humans think it does, but it is the only book in the world with no contradictions in it. Quite an amazing feat when you look at how many authors are in scripture and how many centuries and millennia it records with all those authors in different times, and still fits perfectly in place with no contradictions.

So when you say you are reading the bible like it was from a cave man, really your saying God is the cave man since He was the author of the scripture, and only used men to write it.
 
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trophy33

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So when you say you are reading the bible like it was from a cave man, really your saying God is the cave man since He was the author of the scripture, and only used men to write it.
You must believe in automatic dictation to say that the knowledge or personality of writers had no impact on the text.

But most Christians do not believe in automatic dictation.
 
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Strugglingsaint

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The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Look at the first two lines of Genesis

Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.

Just nitpicking your title OP, but science doesn't really have an agenda; it's not an entity; as in it's not VS. anything really.
I can use science (or the scientific method) to prove things of the Bible and I can use science to prove "Christian" is a real person, so in that case would it not be pro Christian?


In all seriousness, why can one's faith not be based on fact?

Finally, sure the Bible doesn't say how long ago the Universe began, but the verses following the ones you highlighted don't give much room for interpretation of: God created dinosaurs, wiped them out and then created man.
 
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Acts2:38

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You must believe in automatic dictation to say that the knowledge or personality of writers had no impact on the text.

But most Christians do not believe in automatic dictation.

No, you are putting words in my mouth. Paul obviously had personality, however was still brought to bare and deliver what God wanted.

If your not going to believe what scripture says, then how do you, or can you for that matter, consider yourself a believer and Christian?

It's simple to me, you believe Gods word aka scripture/bible or you don't. I think you can follow me on the weight of such stated. Ponder that for a moment.
 
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trophy33

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No, you are putting words in my mouth. Paul obviously had personality, however was still brought to bare and deliver what God wanted.

If your not going to believe what scripture says, then how do you, or can you for that matter, consider yourself a believer and Christian?

It's simple to me, you believe Gods word aka scripture/bible or you don't. I think you can follow me on the weight of such stated. Ponder that for a moment.
I do not understand what you are saying.

So, is Bible 100% God's word and human writers were just dictated what God said or were they putting their knowledge about the world and their own personality into the text, too?
 
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Acts2:38

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I do not understand what you are saying.

So, is Bible 100% God's word and human writers were just dictated what God said or were they putting their knowledge about the world and their own personality into the text, too?

What does scripture say?
2 Timothy 3:
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Quoting someone:
"The Bible is the writing of many different men. But it is also far more than that. Yes, men spoke. They spoke with their own language and style. But Peter mentions two other dimensions of their speaking.
First, they spoke from God. What they have to say is not merely from their own limited perspective. They are not the origin of the truth they speak; they are the channel. The truth is God's truth. Their meaning is God's meaning.
Second, not only is what they spoke from God, but how they spoke it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. "Men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God." God did not simply reveal truth to the writers of Scripture and then depart in hopes that they might communicate it accurately. Peter says that in the very communicating of it they were carried by the Holy Spirit. The making of the Bible was not left to merely human skills of communication; the Holy Spirit himself carried the process to completion."

End quote.

If Peter and Paul are lying here, what hope do you have that anything else in scripture is correct? Just how then can anyone become saved if we can pick and choose what we wish to believe in scripture? How can you stand there straight faced and call yourself a Christian, if you can just pick and choose what you want? Why believe in God at all if His words contradict and the scripture faulty?

Just some things to digest here.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As a Christian I don't have any problems with science. Scientific facts don't change--because facts don't change. But science is a methodology and a process, as such legitimate science by necessity modifies its theories in accordance with observation and data.

And just so we're clear, a scientific theory is not a "guess", it is a demonstrable explanation to explain observable phenomenon. Gravity is a theory, that doesn't mean gravity is some kind of "guess", gravity really does exist as a matter of observable and demonstrable fact, but the theory of gravitation is the model which explains those facts. We have germ theory to explain how microscopic organisms and viruses interact with the body to explain disease. We have combustion theory to explain how combustion of fuel powers an engine.

Theories can change, because modification of our explanations and models of how the universe works need to account for new data and observations. Good theories also act as working predictive models; according to Einstein's Theory of General Relativity the mathematics involved pointed to the likelihood of the existance of things which came to be called "black holes". At the time no evidence existed for the existence of these objects, but over time new data, new evidence, continued to show that Einstein's theory held true. And just recently we finally were able to observe, for the first time, the existence of a black hole. On the other hand, had new data come that demonstrated flaws in Einstein's theory, we wouldn't throw the whole theory about, but would be required to modify the theory to account for the new data.

That's how science works. That scientific understanding changes with the accumulation of new information is not a flaw in the scientific method, it's the major feature; that's what science is. The accumulation of information through a method that gives explanation to observed phenomenon by which we gain greater knowledge and insight into the function and goings-on of the natural, observable universe.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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trophy33

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What does scripture say?
2 Timothy 3:
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Quoting someone:
"The Bible is the writing of many different men. But it is also far more than that. Yes, men spoke. They spoke with their own language and style. But Peter mentions two other dimensions of their speaking.
First, they spoke from God. What they have to say is not merely from their own limited perspective. They are not the origin of the truth they speak; they are the channel. The truth is God's truth. Their meaning is God's meaning.
Second, not only is what they spoke from God, but how they spoke it is controlled by the Holy Spirit. "Men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God." God did not simply reveal truth to the writers of Scripture and then depart in hopes that they might communicate it accurately. Peter says that in the very communicating of it they were carried by the Holy Spirit. The making of the Bible was not left to merely human skills of communication; the Holy Spirit himself carried the process to completion."

End quote.

If Peter and Paul are lying here, what hope do you have that anything else in scripture is correct? Just how then can anyone become saved if we can pick and choose what we wish to believe in scripture? How can you stand there straight faced and call yourself a Christian, if you can just pick and choose what you want? Why believe in God at all if His words contradict and the scripture faulty?

Just some things to digest here.
So, do you believe that human writers influenced the text or was the text simply dictated so they had no impact on wording? Is Bible inspired (thoughts) or dictated word for word?

Also, you must come up with some "perfect preservation" theory, right? Because what use would 100% inspiration be, if it would not be 100% perfectly preserved.
 
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Acts2:38

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So, do you believe that human writers influenced the text or was the text simply dictated so they had no impact on wording? Is Bible inspired (thoughts) or dictated word for word?

Honestly, are you not getting it? It's not what I believe that matters, what does scripture say? Did you read it?

I believe in the scripture and what it states.

Do you believe? How do you measure up being a Christian, and have the gall to pick and choose what you deem is acceptable in scripture to believe, while throwing the rest out? (I am not accusing you, I am merely throwing out food for thought so to speak. Provoking discussion.)

Did God allow the nation of Israel to pick and choose what they wanted to believe in the OT, or did he punish them (ie book of Judges)?

Just because He doesn't punish people immediately like in times of old, doesn't mean we wouldn't be punished when our time comes, everlastingly, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Acts 17:30-31

Also, you must come up with some "perfect preservation" theory, right? Because what use would 100% inspiration be, if it would not be 100% perfectly preserved.

My belief in scripture, and what it states, leads to this Matthew 24:35/Mark 13:31/Luke 16:17.
Jesus knew and said that the gospel would be spread everywhere Matthew 24:14/Mark 13:10

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls proves we have the same old testament as Jesus's time. Also thousands of manuscripts of the NT have survived. Secular writers such as Josephus for example. Maccabeus's rebellion lead to many surviving scripts as well.

Make no mistake, it has been preserved.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Also, you must come up with some "perfect preservation" theory, right? Because what use would 100% inspiration be, if it would not be 100% perfectly preserved.

What does Yahuweh the One Holy Perfect Righteous Almighty Merciful Vengeful Creator

Say ?

Who Does He Say to TRUST and RELY ON ?
 
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Tone

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As a Christian I don't have any problems with science. Scientific facts don't change--because facts don't change. But science is a methodology and a process, as such legitimate science by necessity modifies its theories in accordance with observation and data.

But, observation and data is subjective.

At the time no evidence existed for the existence of these objects, but over time new data, new evidence, continued to show that Einstein's theory held true. And just recently we finally were able to observe, for the first time, the existence of a black hole.

Do you agree that the Bible contains many similar "predictions" that have gradually revealed themselves to be true. Why do evolutionists scoff then, when we do the same with our Bibles...seems like a double standard.

That's how science works. That scientific understanding changes with the accumulation of new information is not a flaw in the scientific method, it's the major feature; that's what science is.

How long has this been what it is and if it has since changed, why do the scoffers still act as though their findings are written in stone, so to speak?

This "scientific" understanding is no more than faith/belief, which humans have used since the beginning, so "science" has no copyright on this what so ever. As @AV1611VET has pointed out on another thread, the "scientific method" or paradigm continues to change...and what do you know, it's looking more and more like the faith described in Hebrews 11:1.
 
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trophy33

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What does Yahuweh the One Holy Perfect Righteous Almighty Merciful Vengeful Creator

Say ?

Who Does He Say to TRUST and RELY ON ?
Wow, this was long.

You will quote something from some today's English Bible and tell me that its what "Yahuweh" says, right?
 
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Honestly, are you not getting it? It's not what I believe that matters, what does scripture say? Did you read it?

I believe in the scripture and what it states.

Do you believe? How do you measure up being a Christian, and have the gall to pick and choose what you deem is acceptable in scripture to believe, while throwing the rest out? (I am not accusing you, I am merely throwing out food for thought so to speak. Provoking discussion.)

Did God allow the nation of Israel to pick and choose what they wanted to believe in the OT, or did he punish them (ie book of Judges)?

Just because He doesn't punish people immediately like in times of old, doesn't mean we wouldn't be punished when our time comes, everlastingly, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Acts 17:30-31



My belief in scripture, and what it states, leads to this Matthew 24:35/Mark 13:31/Luke 16:17.
Jesus knew and said that the gospel would be spread everywhere Matthew 24:14/Mark 13:10

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls proves we have the same old testament as Jesus's time. Also thousands of manuscripts of the NT have survived. Secular writers such as Josephus for example. Maccabeus's rebellion lead to many surviving scripts as well.

Make no mistake, it has been preserved.
You are avoiding simple answers as much as possible. Not a good sign.

Do you believe that the Bible was 100% dictated or do you believe that human writers had a word in it?

Do you believe that the Bible is 100% preserved, so that no original word is lost?
 
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