Is Sola Scriptura Too Much?

[Philip_B]

If the Bible is merely an authorized collection of the church's understanding of God, and is not the very words of God, then how does it have any authority in our lives?

Could you explain how that view (the very words of God) is different from the view taken of the Koran by Muslims?

My concern is that the words of Scripture have been used to support Slavery, Homophobia, Racism, Persecution of Jews, Repression of Women, Domestic Violence, .... .... .... , because the view that speaks of 'the very words of God' and 'the infallible Word of God' precludes hanging a significant question mark over things asserted. In that sense from a philosophical point of view it represents a claim for an epistemic primitive.

I agree with @PloverWing that everything we need to know for salvation is in the Scriptures.

In a way I think that to allow the questions, the challenges, and indeed Biblical Criticism in its numerous genres, is to take a higher view of Scripture and of God, believing that it is capable of standing as received without needing to be propped up by a difficult argument that says it is infallible.

 

[Philip_B]

Were not the Jews entrusted with the oracles of God?

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ro 3:1–2). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

I think the argument of Romans is 'just because the Jews are circumcised does not mean that they are a cut above the rest.'

 

[Tree of Life]

Could you explain how that view (the very words of God) is different from the view taken of the Koran by Muslims?

The main difference is that we believe this about the Bible, whereas they believe it about the Quran. The Bible is God's word, whereas the Quran is not. But an additional difference is that we believe that the Bible can and should be translated.

My concern is that the words of Scripture have been used to support Slavery, Homophobia, Racism, Persecution of Jews, Repression of Women, Domestic Violence, .... .... .... , because the view that speaks of 'the very words of God' and 'the infallible Word of God' precludes hanging a significant question mark over things asserted. In that sense from a philosophical point of view it represents a claim for an epistemic primitive.

Satan used the Bible to try to talk Jesus into jumping off of a building. Should that make us concerned about claiming that the Bible is God's word? It didn't make Jesus concerned about this.

I agree with @PloverWing that everything we need to know for salvation is in the Scriptures.

In a way I think that to allow the questions, the challenges, and indeed Biblical Criticism in its numerous genres, is to take a higher view of Scripture and of God, believing that it is capable of standing as received without needing to be propped up by a difficult argument that says it is infallible.

Much of higher criticism assumes that there is nothing special about the Bible, but it is just like every other human book containing contradictions and inconsistencies. How is that a higher view of Scripture?

 

[Athanasius377]

I think the argument of Romans is 'just because the Jews are circumcised does not mean that they are a cut above the rest.'

True that is the thrust of the argument but that doesn't diminish the statement regarding the oracles of God.

 

[PloverWing]

If the Bible is merely an authorized collection of the church's understanding of God, and is not the very words of God, then how does it have any authority in our lives?

God was uniquely revealed in the person of Jesus Christ and in the earliest church's experience of the Holy Spirit. The authority of the New Testament is that it is the most reliable account we have of these unique revelations.

It was the early church (the church of the first few centuries AD) that vouched for the accuracy and authenticity of the writings we now call the "New Testament". To a large extent, I am trusting the prayerful scholarship of the early church community in determining the canon.

 

[Bladerunner]

I'm going to go with Chesterton on this one. I see Scripture as the the most reliable and authoritative portion of the church's tradition. I don't think I would say that "God wrote the Bible", but rather than humans who had experienced God wrote the Bible, and the church confirmed that these writings did indeed express the church's understanding and experiences of God.

Thus, if this is the definition of Sola Scriptura that we're using:



I'm not going to be comfortable affirming Sola Scriptura, in this sense. Probably, everything we need to know for salvation is in the Scriptures, but I'm not going to take the extra step and say that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Infallibility is only to be found in God's own self. (And maybe in mathematics. )

I agree somewhat but will say, the scriptures of the originals were infallible and inerrant. As per the KJV, I believe the scriptures are infallible and we know where the 200+ errors are located and most of them are names and grammatical errors.

Blade

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Which Bible do you use? The Protestant one? The Catholic one? The Orthodox one? The Coptic one? How do you know which Bible is "correct"?

You will have to research the development of the Bible if you are in doubt...your salvation depends on it.

 

[Tree of Life]

God was uniquely revealed in the person of Jesus Christ and in the earliest church's experience of the Holy Spirit. The authority of the New Testament is that it is the most reliable account we have of these unique revelations.

It was the early church (the church of the first few centuries AD) that vouched for the accuracy and authenticity of the writings we now call the "New Testament". To a large extent, I am trusting the prayerful scholarship of the early church community in determining the canon.

How reliable is "most reliable"? How do you determine what in Scripture is authoritative and what is not?

 

[Philip_B]

The main difference is that we believe this about the Bible, whereas they believe it about the Quran. The Bible is God's word, whereas the Quran is not. But an additional difference is that we believe that the Bible can and should be translated.

Essentially that is just an argument for tribalism and does not do much for me.

Satan used the Bible to try to talk Jesus into jumping off of a building. Should that make us concerned about claiming that the Bible is God's word? It didn't make Jesus concerned about this.

That is true, and maybe that is the point. Jesus was prepared to ask the question. My concern is not with the notion of God's word written, nor with the priority of scripture, but with the notion that we cannot ask the question, that we should not ask the question, that in some sense this is the last word, the unchallengeable end of the argument.

Much of higher criticism assumes that there is nothing special about the Bible, but it is just like every other human book containing contradictions and inconsistencies. How is that a higher view of Scripture?

The mere fact that there is higher criticism points to the fact that it is not just like any other book.

 

[Bladerunner]

How reliable is "most reliable"? How do you determine what in Scripture is authoritative and what is not?

One will have to make a decision here. You either believe the Bible (KJV) is completely GOD's WORD and that he preserved it throughout the ages including our modern times OR one does NOT!

If you believe it is The WORD of GOD, then the Authority you seek is HIS in that BOOK.

Blade

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Bible does not save.... only Jesus saves

The Bible IS important, but is not to be idolized.

The Bible is needed by man because our conscience is severed and cold. The Bible is an instruction manual to a renewed heart and mind because our conscience is still muddled.

If our conscience is clear before God and man then it is not necessary. (Doesnt mean it's not still beneficial to continuously read it) as God wrote His laws on our heart. IF we have connection to the Lord and our conscience remains in tact, open and soft to hear from the Father then the Spirit will guide us far better than the letters of the law

The law kills, but the Spirit is life.

To idolize the Bible is to do just as the Pharisees had a love of the law. Yes, the Bible is important, but there is none more important than the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

Books are books, some have a great value such as the Bible... but without the Spirit to shed light on the truths within the Bible.. the Bible is meaningless.

We do not create light, we reflect light.

We do not "earn" light, it is placed on us by the Father based on how well we reflect the light we have. Doesnt matter how much time we spend with our nose in the Bible, if we stifle the light we are given... why would the Father bestow more upon us when we dont put the light we already have to use?

We can only reflect that light by having the Spirit in us, the more of the Spirit we have, the more we reflect. It is the Spirit that reflects light.

All we do is get out of the way and allow Christ to continue to wash peoples feet through us.

II Peter 1:20-22:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

I quote again...
Matthew 24:35:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
and...
Matthew 22:29:
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
and...
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
and...
Romans 15:4:
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
and...
II Timothy 3:15-17:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I could go on quoting passages which point to the accuracy and necessity of Scripture and Scriptures place and purpose in a Christians life, but from the few above you see that Scripture itself proclaims that Scripture is not tainted by man's interpretation and so one cannot lay Scripture aside on that account. Jesus says in essence that they are the Words proceeding from God's own mouth.
When you claim the spirit alone can guide you and thus Scripture is quite secondary remember this passage...
I John 4:1:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world...
We need Scripture to make a distinction between good and evil which at times comes to us via the Spirit of Truth or a spirit of evil...God's Word gives us this wisdom and yes that wisdom is imparted to us by the Holy Spirit as we hear or read the Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all who reject the doctrine of Sola Scriptura,

First let me begin with my definition (which is the classic Protestant definition). Sola Scriptura teaches that the Bible alone is the word of God and only infallible rule of faith and morals. Sola Scriptura does not say that the Bible is the only authority, but that it is the only infallible authority. Church teachings are very useful and important, but they are not equal to Scripture. At the end of the day, even they must be evaluated according to Scripture.

That said...

Do you believe that those who hold to Sola Scriptura have too high a view of Scripture? I mean, we believe that the Scriptures are sufficient for salvation and morals, that they are clear, that they have not been corrupted, and that they are inerrant.

Is this too high a view of the Bible?

It seems to me that those who want to say that Church Tradition is on par with Scripture and is equally infallible have too low a view of the Bible. They insist that the Bible is not clear and not sufficient to tell us what we need to know to be saved and live holy lives. They insist that we need more teachings than what the Bible provides for these things.

I agree with Sola Scriptura for several reasons.

#1. It is something revealed by God.
#2. It can be defended using Scripture.
#3. No other holy words, traditions, holy books, can be proven to be divine in origin like the Bible.​

God communicating to us by prayer, and God communicating His existence to us by nature, etc. is not the same thing as Scripture. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, etc. The Bible is the inspired real words of God that are holy. It is God’s message to us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the Bible are the perfect words that are needed for us Christians under the New Covenant. So Sola Scriptura is not every single holy word of God that was recorded in one book (the Bible).

The Bible actually mentions certain books in the Bible that we never got to see. Here is part of a study I did a few years back on that (if you are interested).

The Different Books Mentioned in the Bible:

A. Heavenly Books:

#1. The Word of God (Forever settled in Heaven).
#2. The Lamb's Book of Life.
#3. The Book of Remembrance.
#4. Unnamed Book That Has All Our Members Written Within It.
#5. The Book (Scroll) of the Seven Seals.
#6. Unnamed Books of Judgment.
#7. The Unnamed Little Books That Ezekiel and John Eat.​

B. Earthly Books:

I. Spiritual and or Prophetic:

#1. Samuel's Book of the Manner of the Kingdom.
#2. The Book of Nathan the Prophet.
#3. The Book of Gad the Seer.
#4. The Acts of Solomon.
#5. Solomon's Many Other Proverbs and Songs.
#6. The Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite.
#7. The Story of the Prophet Iddo.
#8. The Visions of Iddo the Seer.
#9. The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet.
#10. The Sayings of the Seers.
#11. Paul's Earlier Epistle to the Corinthians About Fornication.


II. Historical:

#1. The Book of the Living.
#2. The Book of the Wars of the Lord.
#3. The Book of Jasher.
#4. David's Letter to Joab.
#5. The Book of Jehu.
#6. Jehu's 1st Letter to Samaria.
#7. Jehu's 2nd Letter to Samaria.
#8. Unfinished Record of Princes Not Added to Chronicles.
#9. Writings of David and Solomon on Passover Keepings.
#10. Actions of King Uzziah Not Recorded in the Book of Isaiah.
#11. Mordecai's Purim Announcement Letter to the Jews.
#12. Esther & Mordecai's 2nd Confirmation Letter of Purim.​

C. Possible Other Books.

I. Heavenly Books:

#1. The Book of the Living.
#2. Library (Larger Than Earth) on the Complete Life of Jesus.​

II. Earthly Books:

#1. The Book of the Kings of Israel.
#2. The Book of the Kings of Judah.
#3. The Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.
#4. The Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah.​

D. God's People Revealing Past New Oral Prophecies:

#1. Writer of Hebrews Reveals a New Oral Prophecy of Jesus.
#2. Jude Reveals an Unknown New Oral Prophecy of Enoch.​

E. Secular or Wordly Writings in God's Word:

I. God's People Verbally Quoting Secular Writings:

#1. Paul Quotes an Inscription on an Athenian Altar.
#2. Paul Quotes Epimenides' de Oraculis.
#3. Paul Quotes Aratus' Phaenomena (A Poem).
#4. Paul Quotes Menander's Poetry.
#5. Paul Quotes Epimenides' Paradox.


II. Secular Works Transcribed (In Part or In It's Entirety):

#1. Jezebel's Letters to the Officials of Naboth's City.
#2. Sennacherib's Letter to Hezekiah.
#3. Huram's Letter to Solomon.
#4. Shemaiah's Letter to Zephaniah on the Exile Prophecy.
#5. King Cyrus's Proclamation to All His Kingdom.
#6. Enemies of Judah Led by 3 Men Write a Letter to Artaxerxes.
#7. Artaxerxes Letter in Reply to the 3 Men.
#8. Govenor Tatnai Writes to Darius About the Jews Rebuilding.
#9. Darius' Decree to Help Rebuild the Temple.
#10. Artaxerxe's Approval Letter to Ezra to Rebuild the Wall.
#11. Sanballat Threatens Nehemiah to Stop Building the Wall.
#12. Chief Captain Claudius Lysias' Letter to Governor Felix.


III. Secular Works Mentioned By Name But Not Shown:

#1. Benhadad's Letter to the King of Israel.
#2. Berodachbaladan's Letters to Hezekiah.
#3. Artaxerxe's Letters to Nehemiah in Rebuilding the Wall.
#4. Tobaiah & the Judean Noble's Letters Sent to Nehemiah.
#5. The Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia.
#6. Xerxe's Unintended Decree (By Haman) to Kill the Jews.
#7. Xerxe's Decree for the Jews to Protect Themselves.
#8. High Priest's Letters Enabling Saul to Round-up Christians.​

Note: I used to have the verse numbers for every single one of these on another forum, but the forum decided to save space by deleting their older posts. So I lost the verse references.

 

[Pete&Anna]

That's kind of like using the scripture as a binding spell on the Holy Spirit. I disagree with that methodology. God can say whatever He likes.

If God put scriptures into men's hearts, then God surely can say whatever He wants, but He will never contradict what He has already said.

 

[Toro]

II Peter 1:20-22:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

I quote again...
Matthew 24:35:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
and...
Matthew 22:29:
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
and...
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
and...
Romans 15:4:
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
and...
II Timothy 3:15-17:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I could go on quoting passages which point to the accuracy and necessity of Scripture and Scriptures place and purpose in a Christians life, but from the few above you see that Scripture itself proclaims that Scripture is not tainted by man's interpretation and so one cannot lay Scripture aside on that account. Jesus says in essence that they are the Words proceeding from God's own mouth.
When you claim the spirit alone can guide you and thus Scripture is quite secondary remember this passage...
I John 4:1:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world...
We need Scripture to make a distinction between good and evil which at times comes to us via the Spirit of Truth or a spirit of evil...God's Word gives us this wisdom and yes that wisdom is imparted to us by the Holy Spirit as we hear or read the Word.

I could post scriptures too I just happen to be at work and didnt think people that want to hold the book as the most important issue in salvation would be so avert to seeking inside it.

Such as where Jesus says His brothers, sisters and mother are those that do the will of the Father... not those that read their Bibles daily and take their vitamins.
Matthew 12:50

John 15:1-4 If the Spirit does not abide in someone they lack fruit of the Spirit will be cast into the fire. He doesnt say, if you dont read your Bible.

The Spirit cleans the INSIDE of the cup... those that seek Bible knowledge alone and idolize the Bible above relationship to the Lord seek the same things the Pharisees sought... they washed the outside of their cup. Matthew 23:23-32.is what a love of the law and lack of the Spirit will get you.

What did Jesus have to say about Pharisees? People that had all the knowledge of the law (Similar to those that seek Bible knowledge over seeking relationship to the Lord)?

Matthew 7:23
Matthew 5:20

What knowledge of law are you going to find that the Pharisees did not possess?

In what book is the Lord going to say "I know you, do not depart from me.

You only hear "I know you" in relationship, not in books.

Again... the Bible and scriptures DO have their place, but its NOT to be an idol.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If God put scriptures into men's hearts, then God surely can say whatever He wants, but He will never contradict what He has already said.

I'd say re-read the old testament, there are so many statements that involve the prophet or forefather haggling with God. A famous one is where God says to Moses "how about we ditch these people and I start over with you?" it's just that, there are times God says or does things that seems "uncharacteristic" but that's only from a human perspective. So, it's best to let God be God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To check out my extensive Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura, please see my two posts at the start of this thread here:

A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

To see the tons evidences for the Bible being divine in origin, see my Blogger article here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

 

[Swan7]

I could post scriptures too I just happen to be at work and didnt think people that want to hold the book as the most important issue in salvation would be so avert to seeking inside it.

Such as where Jesus says His brothers, sisters and mother are those that do the will of the Father... not those that read their Bibles daily and take their vitamins.
Matthew 12:50

John 15:1-4 If the Spirit does not abide in someone they lack fruit of the Spirit will be cast into the fire. He doesnt say, if you dont read your Bible.

The Spirit cleans the INSIDE of the cup... those that seek Bible knowledge alone and idolize the Bible above relationship to the Lord seek the same things the Pharisees sought... they washed the outside of their cup. Matthew 23:23-32.is what a love of the law and lack of the Spirit will get you.

What did Jesus have to say about Pharisees? People that had all the knowledge of the law (Similar to those that seek Bible knowledge over seeking relationship to the Lord)?

Matthew 7:23
Matthew 5:20

What knowledge of law are you going to find that the Pharisees did not possess?

In what book is the Lord going to say "I know you, do not depart from me.

You only hear "I know you" in relationship, not in books.

Again... the Bible and scriptures DO have their place, but its NOT to be an idol.

Yes, exactly! The letter of the law kills, but the Spirit gives life! Amen!
2 Corinthians 3:4-6

The Bible is all about His reflection - even creation itself reflects Him, so I see what you're saying. We are also to reflect Jesus Christ and walk and He walked. To really understand scripture we must rely on God, His Holy Spirit, to teach us: Proverbs 3:5-6, John 14:26, John 16:13

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This Christian movie trailer (A movie I hope to see in the next couple of weeks) reminds me a little of Sola Scriptura.

For there is power in the Word of God.

In other words, once a person tastes the goodness of God’s Word, they don’t want anything else (When it comes to spiritual doctrine and righteous instruction).

 

[PloverWing]

How reliable is "most reliable"? How do you determine what in Scripture is authoritative and what is not?

"Most reliable": Chiefly, more reliable than the other first- and second-century writings that were not accepted into the canon. Also, more reliable than the church's later theological writings, even venerable writings like the Nicene Creed.

"How do you determine what in Scripture is authoritative": It depends on what you mean by authoritative. How do I determine what belongs in the canon of Scripture? I defer to the judgment of the early church; they defined the canon. How do I determine how accurate various portions of Scripture are, or what they mean, or how they apply to our lives, or what the New Testament writers would have written if they'd lived in 2019? That's much more difficult. In my church community, we famously try to discern truth through a combination of Scripture, tradition, and reason. It's an inexact process, though prayerfully undertaken, and it does not guarantee infallible results.