Theory on the origin of evil

[GodsGrace101]

@GodsGrace101

Example - you give your kid $10. to go by a burger at the mall. The $10. gets stolen. Evil has occurred as a result of your action (giving the kid $10.) But you are not at fault for the $10. getting stolen.

And here's where I question - how does God's knowledge that evil would come into existence when He created something make Him responsible for the result of something He performed with perfect intentions?

This is how I don't see how the theory I've presented makes God responsible for evil?

Now His plan is perfect, in that He devised a means of ultimately solving the problem of evil. Now if God didn't have a perfect plan, judicially speaking He would be responsible for evil because what would be the point in creating something that was fundamentally unredeemable. God being practical as well as loving, I don't see that He would have ever created a universe that He knew He was just going to destroy in the end.

That would have made God evil!

It's interesting that you bring up a point by which a priest friend of mine is very bothered.

Why did God even create everything, including us, if He knew we'd fall and sin and have to face hell, even for some.

I think there are some questions to which there is no answer. I brought up the idea of dualism to him once, and he said absolutely not. He's also a theologian BTW and reads the bible in both Koine Greek and Hebrew.

As to your example above..it is flawed.

I give my kid the 10.
It gets stolen...

WHY does it get stolen?
Of course God didn't cause it to be stolen...
but WHAT DID?

This is your original question.
In your example God is NOT responsible for the theft.
But who/what is?
It's this evil we're talking about...but still no answer as to where it originates.

And the plan God has for solving the problem of evil...
Do you mean by ending everything and bringing in the new Jerusalem? Do you mean the redemption by Jesus?

I could only agree to the first....

 

[The Righterzpen]

It sounded like evil preexists creation in your view. Is this not what you said?

The portion that you quoted could stand to use some clarification. I agree with you there.

The entity of the theory does not say evil preexisted creation. I'll need to go back and clarify the language there.

 

[Tone]

Every time God created something. "He saw that it was Good". No creature He created could commit evil, since none of them had moral capacity of a knowledge of God - except angels and humans. He committed angels first, no-one knows how long before He created humans. But they had moral capacity and free will, and chose to do something contrary to the will of God, which is the definition of evil. Later, when He created humans, they likewise had moral capacity and free will, an d also chose do do things contrary to God's will.

And when they joined together to accomplish what they were created for, He said it was "Very good".

It is when they divide themselves and thereby fail to sustain life, that they become wicked.

"Water is good, but fish in the water...teeming with life, is very good!"

 

[Tree of Life]

The portion that you quoted could stand to use some clarification. I agree with you there.

The entity of the theory does not say evil preexisted creation. I'll need to go back and clarify the language there.

How would you clarify it?

 

[The Righterzpen]

What do you mean by incorruptible?

It can not fall back into sin. It's incapable of being degraded again. Also incapable of decay - if you want to include 2nd law of thermal dynamics.

 

[Tone]

"Evil may be taken metaphysically, physically and morally. Metaphysical evil consists in mere imperfection, physical evil in suffering, and moral evil in sin."
G.W. Leibniz, Essays on the Justice of God, the freedom of man and the origin of evil

Something in this sense

Why wouldn't a fish out of water qualify for all that?

 

[Sanoy]

Very good and concise.

When I say God is good ... I always type God IS GOOD.
God IS LOVE....I agree with the 3rd option.

God does not DO something good,,,He IS good.
It's His very nature.
This reminds me of 2 Timothy 2:13...God remains faithful to Himself because he cannot DENY HIMSELF,,,because HE IS faithfulness.

I see now what you mean about the Ying and Yang and the danger of separating the good and evil into forces.

But it doesn't help this conversation much, does it?
It verifies that God IS GOODNESS itself,,,
but it doesn't tell us about evil....only that He cannot be evil (which I stated way back at the beginning).

I think it helps here in that it is not a pure form, or entity that comes into being. It's a nature that comes into existence as a logical consequent of choice. Being wet is a nature that can come into existence when water comes into existence, but wetness isn't created, water is. The very essence of free willed life is the ability to have intentions, and intentions bring about spiritual natures. In exorcisms there is a sense of evil that one might mistake as a force, it is like all the evil dead are blendered up and move like a school of fish forming a single entity. And there are probably emanations or characteristics from that nature that we can sense. For example being wet makes one feel cold and heavy. So either natures have characteristics that can be sensed or experienced.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Maybe that's why we are going through this whole redemptive process...maybe it was necessary for becoming one with the "representation of His being".

Hebrews 1:3
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

*Some things were not sustaining "all things"...

I agree. It doesn't answer the O.P.s question...however, yes this is true.

Jesus set up His Kingdom here on earth.
We belong to that Kingdom....
It starts here, we belong to it, we are transformed, regenerated, sanctified, however one wants to understand it...right here and now,,,

And we will CONTINUE to be in His real Kingdom upon death.

 

[Tone]

Now if God didn't have a perfect plan, judicially speaking He would be responsible for evil because what would be the point in creating something that was fundamentally unredeemable.

Bingo!

 

[The Righterzpen]

It's interesting that you bring up a point by which a priest friend of mine is very bothered.

Why did God even create everything, including us, if He knew we'd fall and sin and have to face hell, even for some.

I think there are some questions to which there is no answer. I brought up the idea of dualism to him once, and he said absolutely not. He's also a theologian BTW and reads the bible in both Koine Greek and Hebrew.

As to your example above..it is flawed.

I give my kid the 10.
It gets stolen...

WHY does it get stolen?
Of course God didn't cause it to be stolen...
but WHAT DID?

This is your original question.
In your example God is NOT responsible for the theft.
But who/what is?
It's this evil we're talking about...but still no answer as to where it originates.

And the plan God has for solving the problem of evil...
Do you mean by ending everything and bringing in the new Jerusalem? Do you mean the redemption by Jesus?

I could only agree to the first....

Why some are redeemed and not others is a different theological question than the origin of evil.

Obviously you believe God is not the origin of evil.

And I think you agree that evil did not predate creation.

Satan's disobedience is the first manifestation that "evil" existed in the creation, which happened before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Well, what made Satan transgress? (What made him too proud to obey?) How did these things come about? That's the question.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think it helps here in that it is not a pure form, or entity that comes into being. It's a nature that comes into existence as a logical consequent of choice. Being wet is a nature that can come into existence when water comes into existence, but wetness isn't created, water is. The very essence of free willed life is the ability to have intentions, and intentions bring about spiritual natures. In exorcisms there is a sense of evil that one might mistake as a force, it is like all the evil dead are blendered up and move like a school of fish forming a single entity. And there are probably emanations or characteristics from that nature that we can sense. For example being wet makes one feel cold and heavy. So either natures have characteristics that can be sensed or experienced.

But how did the water come into being?
I must say that I don't question this anymore...I used to many years ago. I've come to just accept that evil exists and we don't know why or where it comes from. I do like the topic to hear others' views.

And sure, free will give us the choice.

But if you believe in exorcisms, don't you also believe that the evil in the person is a being?
There's a priest (more than one really) here in Italy that is very famous for performing exorcisms...he says that he's dealing with an entity.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why some are redeemed and not others is a different theological question than the origin of evil.

Obviously you believe God is not the origin of evil.

And I think you agree that evil did not predate creation.

Satan's disobedience is the first manifestation that "evil" existed in the creation, which happened before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Well, what made Satan transgress? (What made him too proud to obey?) How did these things come about? That's the question.

I know the question R !
I just don't know the answer.

You do bring up an interesting point...
You said evil did not exist before creation.
How could you know that?
The bible tells us how the angels fell because it happened in our "time".
How could we possibly know what happened before God created our time?

I don't think we could.

 

[trophy33]

Why wouldn't a fish out of water qualify for all that?

Not sure what you mean... that the fish is a moral sinner?

 

[The Righterzpen]

How would you clarify it?

Do you mean clarifying the theory, or the part you quoted that is not clear?

The basis of the theory is "To every action is an equal and opposite reaction". The "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed (or at least part of it) was that He knew that as soon as He created something, the theoretically opposite of what He was would become part of the creation.

Obviously though, evil does not bear the attributes of God because evil is ultimately conquerable. It's not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal or immortal. God's perfect plan was greater than evil and so God (being God) created because He knew He could conquer evil.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Wow...6 pages!
I must say good night, but will be back tomorrow.
It's late here...

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[The Righterzpen]

I know the question R !
I just don't know the answer.

You do bring up an interesting point...
You said evil did not exist before creation.
How could you know that?
The bible tells us how the angels fell because it happened in our "time".
How could we possibly know what happened before God created our time?

I don't think we could.

"In the beginning God...." and "In the beginning was God..." Nothing existed but God before God created anything. This is how I know evil did not predate creation.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Wow...6 pages!
I must say good night, but will be back tomorrow.
It's late here...

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Good night!

 

[Tone]

Not sure what you mean... that the fish is a moral sinner?

That the situation is morally bankrupt.

*Maybe not...

 

[trophy33]

Do you mean clarifying the theory, or the part you quoted that is not clear?

The basis of the theory is "To every action is an equal and opposite reaction". The "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed (or at least part of it) was that He knew that as soon as He created something, the theoretically opposite of what He was would become part of the creation.

Obviously though, evil does not bear the attributes of God because evil is ultimately conquerable. It's not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal or immortal. God's perfect plan was greater than evil and so God (being God) created because He knew He could conquer evil.

Will not the conquering create another evil, in your theory? Because its again some action.

 

[Tone]

Satan's disobedience is the first manifestation that "evil" existed in the creation, which happened before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Well, what made Satan transgress? (What made him too proud to obey?) How did these things come about? That's the question.

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"