The office of Apostle was given by Christ to the twelve.
Yes.
But not just to the twelve.
He has sent many since He ascended on high.
JLB
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The office of Apostle was given by Christ to the twelve.
Yes He has sent many apostles, messengers with the Gospel, but only the twelve received Apostleship. Of course the disciples erred when they cast lots and chose Matthias. They took a vote, notice that they chose a man to take the place of Judas. Instead of waiting on God to reveal whom He had chosen they took it upon themselves to do that which is up to God to do. Instead of waiting for God to call Saul, renamed Paul, into the Apostleship they took it upon themselves. Notice that you never hear anything from or about Matthias again.Yes.
But not just to the twelve.
He has sent many since He ascended on high.
JLB
So he was saying the gifts would expire with the Revelation of Jesus Christ that we now know was written by John in either 60 or 90 AD.
All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, as John published Revelation.
Yes He has sent many apostles, messengers with the Gospel, but only the twelve received Apostleship.
Can you give Scripture to support your assumptions?
Satan is the great deciever and makes his ministers seem to be ministers of righteousness.Nope, the Word says "When completeness comes" not "when completeness is revealed". Jesus Christ is the complete perfection of God and He has not come. This is why the Gifts remain and just because God has never showed you Him using the gifts in Church does not mean they don't exist. I still have the gift of Discerning Spirits and speaking in tongues. I've heard messages in tongues with interpretations, prophesies in the Holy Spirit, Words of Knowledge, Words of Wisdom and seen numerous miracles of healing thru the gift of healing.
God doesn't EXPIRE his gifts. He FULFILLS them when Christ returns and then they will cease to be needed. Until then, they're still needed and they still exist.
The word in the Greek has different meanings. It can simply a messenger sent, one who carries a message or one who speaks the very Word of God. The office of Apostleship has requirements as out lined in Scripture. I have already given some of them and the Scripture to back them up. The only passage you have given, Eph. 4, I have already explained in its context. When you can come up with a better Sciptural argument then come back and present it. So far you have only one verse, which you apply without merit, to back up your assertion that there are Apostles today.Ok. So please explain what the difference is between being an Apostle and receiving an Apostleship?
When Jesus commissions someone as an Apostle then they have received an Apostleship and are sent forth with His authority.
JLB
The word apostle in the passage can have one of the three connotations that I mentioned above. It simply means one sent with a message and can apply to anyone callled of God to preach His Gospel. I could call myself an apostle under these circumstances but I have not been given the office of Apostle. I do not meet the requirements laid out in Scripture.And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:11-14
- till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Has the body of Christ come to the unity of faith?
Has the body of Christ grown up into the maturity of the measure of Christ?
Has the body of Christ come into the unity of the doctrine of Christ?
The body of Christ is anything but unified in maturity, doctrine or the faith.
JLB
Thanks for engaging my thoughts on this.Your analysis is similar to Robert Thomas (professor of NT at the Masters Seminary). In his book Understanding Spiritual Gifts he also notes the parallels between 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 with regard to maturity. His conclusion is that teleios should be translated maturity. And that a significant advance in the church's maturity was attained by having the completed canon, at which point the revelatory gifts ceased (as they were no longer necessary for instruction in the faith).
Personally I see 'completeness' as a better fit for teleios and doesn't rely on the assumption that all bible translations have got it wrong.
You are speaking of another passage that doesn't apply to the Revelation of Jesus Christ being the cut-off point for seeking the gifts. But at any rate, your passage speaks of primitive knowledge being replaced by increased knowledge which anyone can see pertains to the New Covenant scriptures completing the old.Nope, the Word says "When completeness comes" not "when completeness is revealed". Jesus Christ is the complete perfection of God and He has not come. This is why the Gifts remain and just because God has never showed you Him using the gifts in Church does not mean they don't exist. I still have the gift of Discerning Spirits and speaking in tongues. I've heard messages in tongues with interpretations, prophesies in the Holy Spirit, Words of Knowledge, Words of Wisdom and seen numerous miracles of healing thru the gift of healing.
God doesn't EXPIRE his gifts. He FULFILLS them when Christ returns and then they will cease to be needed. Until then, they're still needed and they still exist.
I'm actually coming to agree with this.
In fact, I think this builds a positive case for why tongues would still be valid for today. (A) It's clearly a very useful evangelistic tool (imagine being able to go into a new culture without needing to study the language before you can preach?). In Acts 2 it clearly contributed evangelistically. (B) Tongues is clearly a sign of the reverse of Babel and a sign of the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed. The gospel promises that all nations will be under one head, Christ. Tongues is a supernatural sign of that. That sign is still very much needed today. Whenever someone wants to talk about a multi-ethnic church, too many people run for the hills. We still need a supernatural stamp of approval from God that almost slaps us across the face to see the obvious: he loves all and desires to see all in his church and in our local churches; all cultures, all races, all languages, whether that is comfortable for us or not.
I only know of one case - experienced by a good friend - where they experienced tongues in this manner. But I don't want to get into it as there is no chance I could prove this sort of thing.
NT prophecy appears to always have encouragement as its focus. (1 Corinthians 14:3.) At its most basic definition, prophecy is to "speak under divine inspiration". All preaching, therefore, should have a prophetic element - in other words, I certainly hope someone is preaching under divine inspiration when I hear them preaching! This broadens the scope of 'prophecy' and I think that the NT actually does broaden the scope quite a bit. That would need to be a further discussion. But I do know of cessationists who are happy to classify 'prophecy' as 'preaching'.
I'm not sure this can be proved without a doubt. Trophimus was left sick by Paul (2 Timothy 4:20). Epaphroditus was quite sick to the point of death (Philippians 2:27). In both cases, Paul appeared to have been around during their illness, but either (a) did not pray for them, (b) did pray for them but it was not successful, (c) did pray for them and it took time for them to be healed.
We can't actually know either way. It's possible that the instantaneous healings were recorded precisely because they were unique and not the norm. But I can't see a way of knowing for sure.
At any rate, the reality is that a lot of healing within the charismatic and pentecostal movement really is just hype. Sometimes there is manipulation. Sometimes people are carried by the emotions of the moment. And sometimes people really are healed.
Healing always gets us into the realm of personal experience, and I don't like to go there much in this sort of discussion as it usually tends to be less helpful. It's a touchy subject and it's often a very hurtful one. At any rate, I will say that I have prayed for people and they've been healed, and I've been healed from prayer. Instantly. Admittedly, these were all minor illnesses. However, I do think that the gift of healing extends to doctors and I don't always think healing has to be classified as a supernatural gift only.
But all this is now just speculation and hardly helpful towards the discussion. I'm not ready to put a stake in the ground on any theology of healing right now, so I would prefer not to discuss that one for now. I've seen too many people hurt by a charismatic theology of healing that refuses to accept any nuance on the issue. On the other hand, I've seen and know people who have genuinely been healed. I have a good friend who was instantly healed from what the doctors claimed was an untreatable thyroid problem. Funny though, he had been prayed for several times, but for some reason one very unhyped very unemotional prayer only a year after his diagnosis worked.
I don't know about this one and aren't ready to tackle it.
The office of Apostleship has requirements as out lined in Scripture.
The word apostle in the passage can have one of the three connotations that I mentioned above. It simply means one sent with a message and can apply to anyone callled of God to preach His Gospel.
Thanks for engaging my thoughts on this.
I think Thomas is right, but I disagree that this has to mean the gifts have ceased. I get the logic and there's nothing wrong with the logic in and of itself. In fact, I kind of like it. But my contention is the gifts were given to bring the Church to maturity, and therefore they ought to continue to bring the Church to maturity. I can't see any reason why they couldn't be used to do just that.
I suppose your contention is that Scripture is enough to bring the Church to maturity, and I would agree that it really is enough in one sense, but in another sense it is not enough. We obviously still need teachers and preachers to help us understand all of it, and most cessationists (if not all?) would agree with that, otherwise they wouldn't believe the call of the preacher to be valid. Technically speaking, the Bible is enough as far as revelation goes, but God still "gave gifts to men" to unpack it and help us along in our growth in it.
And above all, we need the Holy Spirit's continuous guidance in studying Scripture.
If this is the fact, I still think that tongues and prophecy are given to the church to help us understand the faith given to the saints "once for all", the "apostles' teaching", the Bible. And this is usually the healthy checkpoint for healthy charismatics - that if any prophecy etc. goes against the Bible, it is not of God. I can't see any reason why two gifts given to the church to do that would cease. The line drawn for those two seems arbitrary to me.
At any rate, I think the conversation has come to something of an end for me, but I've definitely learned something from you and @Dave L and I thank you both for that.
the verses stating the qualifications for an apostle which cannot be met today; and many other verses that indicate apostles have ceased.
Thank you - this was very informativeRobert Thomas's argument (not mine) is that having the completed canon was not the full maturity of the church, but a sufficiently huge advance for it to be the maturity referrerd to in 1 Cor 13:8 (teleios) and v11 and hence marks the cessation of the revelatory gifts. He goes on to say that further maturity would arise from teaching and bible study etc, and would not be fully realised until the return of Christ.
The thing to note about Eph 4 is that it is not the gifts listed in v11 that are said to continue, but rather the equipping of the church which will continue. If this passage is used to argue for the continuation of apostles (as it often is with fivefold ministry advocates) it opens up a whole can of worms as apostles were spokemen for Christ who had his full weight of authority including the authority to write scripture. Not only that but it contradicts scriptures elsewhere eg: Eph 2:20 states that apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church; the verses stating the qualifications for an apostle which cannot be met today; and many other verses that indicate apostles have ceased. There is no contradiction or controversy if the apostles and prophets mentioned in Eph 4:11 are not new ones but rather the original apostles and prophets who wrote the NT and thus still equip and build up the church today (notice the past tense in v11). Most sensible continuists agree that apostles (of the biblical kind) no longer exist.
What scriptures state that Apostles have ceased?
What qualification can not be met?
JLB
You are not engaging my argument at all. You are cherrypicking phrases and ignoring the rest. That usually means that you have no answer or actual argument.I see.
Could you provide a scripture that uses the phrase “office of Apostleship”?
JLB