Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

[TuxAme]

Whoever rejects any part of the Nicene Creed is not a Christian.

 

[AllDayFaith]

I guess it doesn't surprise me that some people would deny the truth of the Bible. It reminds me of that other "religion" that doesn't believe in the devil or Hell.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you. I was also referring to the member of your congregation. (Praying)

I don't know how he is doing. Maybe we will check it out later. I don't want to be seen as intruding into his private family life, however. His husband is visiting him from time to time (and I don't really know him), that is my understanding.

I just wanted to see him in case he dies and to say the important stuff. I've lost two uncles in the past month and I never had the opportunity to say goodbye, and the people at my church are honestly closer to me than my actual biological family, so it was important.

Just keep in mind though the ELCA is liberal by the standards of this forum, we in the denomination are still human beings and do the stuff Christians do for each other.

 

[LynnSmith]

Seems like another example of more falling away. Denying what God’s Word says and then others starting to believe the same. We are headed into such dark times as more and more of His words are twisted, denied, and turned from good things into bad things.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

I think without a resurrection there is no "Christ." He would be a dead, would-be-Christ, just like Judas the Galillean, Simon bar Kokhba, Theudas, Menahem ben Judah, Simon of Paraea, John of Giscala, etc...

 

[brinny]

God speaks the truth but that doesn't mean we ourselves can infallibly speak that truth. When I hear "God said X, therefore Y", I am inclined to think that's merely being intellectually lazy.


Which approach?

Is there more than one approach to God's Word?

Obviously, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations.

I wasn't speaking of "denominations". I was speaking about God and His Word.

And yes, God IS the Truth, so therefore He speaks the Truth.

That is why we line up everything that is said with God's Word, just like Paul said about the Bereans, who even did so with Paul's writings/words, which he commended and admonished us to do as the Bereans did.

 

[brinny]

I don't know how he is doing. Maybe we will check it out later. I don't want to be seen as intruding into his private family life, however. His husband is visiting him from time to time (and I don't really know him), that is my understanding.

I just wanted to see him in case he dies and to say the important stuff. I've lost two uncles in the past month and I never had the opportunity to say goodbye, and the people at my church are honestly closer to me than my actual biological family, so it was important.

Just keep in mind though the ELCA is liberal by the standards of this forum, we in the denomination are still human beings and do the stuff Christians do for each other.

Thank you for your response. I'm sorry about the loss of your uncles. Praying for the member of your congregation and his family, and you too at this most difficult time of loss and grief. (((hug)))

 

[Calvin_1985]

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9)

"'How will this be, Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin?" (Luke 1:34).

I would say that belief in the virgin birth and the resurrection are absolute requirements of the Christian faith.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Jesus said believe in Him that He is the Messiah, the way, Truth, and Life. He did not say that a person must believe that His mother concieved Him as a Virgin so that you can be Saved.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus said believe in Him that He is the Messiah, the way, Truth, and Life. He did not say that a person must believe that His mother concieved Him as a Virgin so that you can be Saved.

That would tend to be my perspective, too. Most of the accounts of the Gospel we have don't even mention the birth narratives. Paul says he was born of a woman, which is interesting (perhaps he was aware of the story of Christ's bith?) but doesn't tell us anything definitive.

That's why I'm saying I'm not totally put off by being in the same religious movement with theological liberals. Though the traditional Christmas story is important to me, I don't particularly care what the person in another congregation in another states believes in their heart, that's between their conscience and God. What matters is that we do believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That means following him as a disciple and sharing his love with others, not necessarily as being his greatest biographer.

 

[crossnote]

Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

RE: Virgin Birth...A Savior born in sin, saves no one.
RE: Resurrection...A still dead Savior is well...still dead.

Theological liberals like (UTS) will go to great lengths at discrediting God's Word and miracles. It only reveals whose side they are batting for.

 

[FireDragon76]

RE: Virgin Birth...A Savior born in sin, saves no one.
RE: Resurrection...A still dead Savior is well...still dead.

Liberals like (UTS) will go to great lengths at discrediting God'd Word and miracles. It only reveals whose side they are batting for.

In fairness, most who don't believe in the virgin birth, who are theological liberals, also don't believe in original sin. They believe Jesus is a savior in the sense he shows us the true aim of human life and preaches a message of moral reform and liberation. Some also have an understanding of personal sin and that Jesus, and the Church, by extension, also offers forgiveness for that, too.

 

[Calvin_1985]

That would tend to be my perspective, too. Most of the accounts of the Gospel we have don't even mention the birth narratives. Paul says he was born of a woman, which is interesting (perhaps he was aware of the story of Christ's bith?) but doesn't tell us anything definitive.

That's why I'm saying I'm not totally put off by being in the same religious movement with theological liberals. Though the traditional Christmas story is important to me, I don't particularly care what the person in another congregation in another states believes in their heart, that's between their conscience and God. What matters is that we do believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That means following him as a disciple and sharing his love with others, not necessarily as being his greatest biographer.

The Bible does say Virgin and many say it's a mistranslation of Maiden, but what they forget is that Maidens were almost 100% Virgins in Israel because of obvious reasons. They were very dedicated to the practices, especially being a virgin until betrothal. It's textual Criticism that is destroying people's faith and causing people to deny these type of things and cause them to question what it really takes to be a Christian and what we have to believe to become one. I'll tell ya, Satan has so many devices to derail Followers of Yeshua to keep them distracted from learning and understanding the Bible and what Father meant it for.

 

[crossnote]

I don't think we know the nuts and bolts of how God did that, since in some points the Gospel accounts are ambiguous and Jesus existence after the resurrection does not comport easily with our usual understanding of the laws of physics (after all, what exactly is "physical" without physics?). I am neo-orthodox on that point, myself. It's enough to believe that Jesus overcame death in every way that matters for our salvation.

We don't need to know 'how' when God's Word, in multiple places, says He did.

Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Same principle applies to all other miracles. Now if you are doubting the testimony and authenticity of Scripture, then that is another story and you might as well question whether or not you are a believer at all.

 

[crossnote]

In fairness, most who don't believe in the virgin birth, who are theological liberals, also don't believe in original sin. They believe Jesus is a savior in the sense he shows us the true aim of human life and preaches a message of moral reform and liberation. Some also have an understanding of personal sin and that Jesus, and the Church, by extension, also offers forgiveness for that, too.

There are many who show us things...but then we die...and so?
The theological libs are just denying God's clear Word, so why bother pursuing this 'ambiguous' thing called Christianity?

 

[FireDragon76]

There re many who show us things...but then we die...and so?

So even a theological liberal like Harry Emerson Fosdick can see Jesus living in spirit in his Church. Some theological liberals can be people of deep faith and I wouldn't want to discount that possibility just because I think that approach is not my own.

 

[Ken Rank]

Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

No... most Orthodox Jews see Yeshua as a teacher, the Muslims see him as a Prophet... but neither see him as the son of God that raised from the dead. And part of what we are called to believe on is him being raised from the dead.

 

[crossnote]

So even a theological liberal like Harry Emerson Fosdick can see Jesus living in spirit in his Church. Some theological liberals can be people of deep faith and I wouldn't want to discount that possibility just because I think that approach is not my own.

Many people claim things, but if their words end up with a different gospel (Gal 1:8) or they continually teach contrary to Scripture, then there is no light in them and are not to be followed (Isa 8:20).

 

[redleghunter]

For those interested here are two other interviews on similar subjects:

Opinion | Cardinal Tobin, Am I a Christian?

Opinion | Am I a Christian, Pastor Timothy Keller?

 

[redleghunter]

I guess the bottom line for me is that I accept that liberals are part of the broader Christian story, even if I don't follow that type of religion myself.

It still begs the question. I am sure all of the people you referred to were or are good people. There are good Muslims, atheists and others who are not Christian.