Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

redleghunter

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HTacianas

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Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

The virgin birth and the resurrection are defined doctrines of Christianity.
 
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Silverback

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Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

I would say no, both are fundamental doctrines of our faith.
 
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redleghunter

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The virgin birth and the resurrection are defined doctrines of Christianity.
I agree. It's quite obvious from the teachings of the New Testament and historic Creeds. Yet Union Theological Seminary does not think this is important. That 'love' is what matters.
 
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redleghunter

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brinny

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I agree. It's quite obvious from the teachings of the New Testament and historic Creeds. Yet Union Theological Seminary does not think this is important. That 'love' is what matters.

They might want to elaborate on what they mean by love and God's own definition of love, which included His only begotten Son shedding His blood and dying on the cross for our sins, as written in John 3:16.

Both (the virgin birth and Jesus dying on the cross) encapsulates John 3:16, which is the pivotal point of the entire Word of God, and Life vs. Death.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~Jn 3:16
 
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redleghunter

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FireDragon76

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Yes, though perhaps not an orthodox Christian.

Catherine Winkworth, BTW, was a translator of many German hymns into English that fill the hymnals of evangelicals, but she herself was a theological liberal and a feminist. Think of that next time you sing "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation". And Harry Emerson Fosdick, also a liberal, gave us "God of Grace and God of Glory".
 
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brinny

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Yes this is a key point. How do they define "love?" The homepage of Union Theological Seminary kind of defines their secular humanist version of 'love.'

Homepage | Union Theological Seminary

Which is my point exactly.

Love, genuine and authentic love is the sacrifice that God gave of His only begotten Son. In this Love is "Life" and the complete antithesis of "death". It counteracts "death".

How does their professed "love" stand up to God's definition?

On another note, does it matter to them at all if it does? Or does not?

On yet another note, "Love" is "Truth".
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, though perhaps not an orthodox Christian.
Please explain.

Catherine Winkworth, BTW, was a translator of many German hymns into English that fill the hymnals of evangelicals, but she herself was a theological liberal and a feminist.
Did she deny the Virgin Birth and Bodily physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Think of that next time you sing "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation". And Harry Emerson Fosdick, also a liberal, gave us "God of Grace and God of Glory".
Did he deny the Virgin Birth and Bodily physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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FireDragon76

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Please explain.


Did she deny the Virgin Birth and Bodily physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

She was affiliated with a Unitarian church for a while in Manchester, beyond that I don't know.

Did he deny the Virgin Birth and Bodily physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Fosdick believed in the immortality of the soul, like many liberals of his day. Beyond that, I can't speak for him.

I doubt Fosdick understood the virgin birth as anything but a legend meant to represent Jesus exalted status in the early Christian community.
 
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redleghunter

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As I've said before, parsing out "bodily physical resurrection" simply goes beyond the language of the Nicene and Apostles creed. I would accept many possible interpretations of this statement as consistent with the creeds.
The creeds say Jesus was dead and then rose again. That's not clear it was a bodily resurrection?
 
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FireDragon76

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The creeds say Jesus was dead and then rose again. That's not clear it was a bodily resurrection?

I don't think we know the nuts and bolts of how God did that, since in some points the Gospel accounts are ambiguous and Jesus existence after the resurrection does not comport easily with our usual understanding of the laws of physics (after all, what exactly is "physical" without physics?). I am neo-orthodox on that point, myself. It's enough to believe that Jesus overcame death in every way that matters for our salvation.
 
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redleghunter

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As I've said before, parsing out "bodily physical resurrection" simply goes beyond the language of the Nicene and Apostles creed. I would accept many possible interpretations of this statement as consistent with the creeds.

Let's examine:

Apostles Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.

He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge
the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he
is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic
and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
 
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FireDragon76

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I guess the bottom line for me is that I accept that liberals are part of the broader Christian story, even if I don't follow that type of religion myself.
 
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brinny

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I guess the bottom line for me is that I accept that liberals are part of the broader Christian story, even if I don't follow that type of religion myself.

Hello FD. Does the story supersede what is written in God's Word?

(I pray all is well, my friend.)
 
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Anthony2019

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"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9)

"'How will this be, Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin?" (Luke 1:34).

I would say that belief in the virgin birth and the resurrection are absolute requirements of the Christian faith.
 
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Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

One of my hero's of the faith was German Pastor Dietrich Bonhoffer. Prior to the second world war, he studied for a while at General Theological Seminary, and talked about it's lack of theological riggor. In the end he chose to return to Germany, Hitler had him hanged from a meat hook off and on for 12 hours at Flossenberg Concentration Camp, he finally died a few weeks before the war ended.
 
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