John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You need to read these articles on him.
He preaches a double message.

John MacArthur Grace To You Reformed Teacher EXPOSED
JOHN MACARTHUR UNSCRIPTURAL Grace To You

I knew he was exposed for his false gospel message several years ago,

but I don't know if he started out on the wrong side or not.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If the the thief had been allowed to come down off his cross and live more on earth of his new life begotten by faith, do you think more would've been expected of him?

As written throughout the Bible, if someone/anyone/ is transgressing TORAH and not repenting, there is no saving faith.

 

[BCsenior]

As written throughout the Bible, if someone/anyone/ is transgressing TORAH and not repenting, there is no saving faith.

This is obviously true in the New Covenant also!

 

[FireDragon76]

If the the thief had been allowed to come down off his cross and live more on earth of his new life begotten by faith, do you think more would've been expected of him?

We aren't denying that people should follow God's calling, not at all. We simply do not believe that can be defined by law. Grace is the first and last word in the Christian life.

 

[fhansen]

As written throughout the Bible, if someone/anyone/ is transgressing TORAH and not repenting, there is no saving faith.

I would agree. If he fell, he be expected to have a change of heart, repent, and rise again. He'd be expected to produce fruit, to walk in God's ways, to respond to grace given throughout that walk.

 

[BCsenior]

If the the thief had been allowed to come down off his cross and live more on earth of his new life begotten by faith, do you think more would've been expected of him?

Of course, there would have been!
The NT is full of verses about our FAITH being TESTED.
And please don't be deceived by those who say
this is all about rewards!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We aren't denying that people should follow God's calling, not at all. We simply do not believe that can be defined by law. Grace is the first and last word in the Christian life.

The Bible shows clearly the true life vs the false life, with many clear instructions and descriptions from the Creator. That has never changed.

 

[friend of]

@Jason0047

Psalm 143:2
And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Philippians 3:9
be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[FireDragon76]

I would agree. If he fell, he be expected to have a change of heart, repent, and rise again. He'd be expected to produce fruit, to walk in God's ways, to respond to grace given throughout that walk.

We've been preaching about repentance all of Lent. But that message is tempered by the constant reminder that God is gracious. And as Pastor pointed out to me, we cannot earn our repentance, it is also a gift from God.

 

[fhansen]

We've been preaching about repentance all of Lent. But that message is tempered by the constant reminder that God is gracious. And as Pastor pointed out to me, we cannot earn our repentance, it is also a gift from God.

Yes, it's all a gift, but a gift we must accept and respond to. We love Him because He first loved us. He covets us doing our part. For our own good, in response to His initiatives.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, it's all a gift, but a gift we must accept and respond to. We love Him because He first loved us. He covets us doing our part. For our own good, in response to His initiatives.

That's overturning justification by faith apart from works of the Law, at least in our minds. It's like saying, "Here's your gift of socks for Christmas- but if don't put them on, I'll throw you in hell, because you obviously didn't accept the gift". In that case, the gift is a gift in name only and is really more an obligation. We insist the gift is real and isn't some con job on God's part. God desires our love freely, that cannot be coerced from somebody with threats.

It's like Gerhard Forde pointed out, when two people love each other, one does not say "Love me!". They say "I love you".

 

[Aviela]

In reference to post #1:

Whenever I see someone making such certain assertions regarding others salvation, I always remind myself of the passages that remind us we need to be careful about judging others. Yes, I think we should feel confident in what we believe and why. However, we are walking on dangerous ground when we, in a sense, assert 'we' know who should be in in heaven / who is a 'christian':

Jeremiah 17:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

James 4: 11-12 NIV
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sisterd]">[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

I think it important to remember the thief on the cross, not because it's symbolizes 'easy' salvation but it significantly shows that God is the one who decides and what we define as 'worthy' may not be in sync with what God deems as worthy. David sinned and yet he was truly repentant and a man after God's own heart. Who are we....who am I to judge who is worthy.

 

[BCsenior]

In reference to post #1: Whenever I see someone making such certain assertions regarding others salvation, I always remind myself of the passages that remind us we need to be careful about judging others.

Aaaaah yes, you are finding fault with God's Scriptures!
Yeah, I get it ... There are many like you around.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We've been preaching about repentance all of Lent. But that message is tempered by the constant reminder that God is gracious. And as Pastor pointed out to me, we cannot earn our repentance, it is also a gift from God.

Repentance , or being able to turn to God, is a gift, yes.

And without Repentance (without repenting), there is no forgiveness of sin.

Willingness is required, as Jesus said over Jerusalem - IF they had been willing, He would have saved them.

 

[BCsenior]

That's overturning justification by faith apart from works of the Law, at least in our minds.

Who's talking about the works of the Law?

These are NOT works of the Law ...
- loving Jesus enough to obey His commandments
- loving people enough to help them in their need
- choosing to NOT be slaves of sin (Romans 6:16)
- co-operating with the Holy Spirit ...
as He tries to sanctify us unto holiness

You don't like these verses? ...
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your mind, that you may prove what is that
good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
(Romans 12:1-2)

 

[FireDragon76]

Who's talking about the works of the Law?
These are NOT works of the Law ...
- loving Jesus enough to obey His commandments
- loving people enough to help them in their need
- co-operating with the Holy Spirit as He tries to
sanctify us unto holiness

Some of those could be considered "works of the Law", yes, since we understand Law in a broad sense.

You don't like this verse? ...
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
(Romans 12:1-2)

It's fine as Law, but it is not Gospel. The two aren't the same thing.

 

[Aviela]

Aaaaah yes, you are finding fault with God's Scriptures!
Yeah, I get it ... There are many like you around.

I'm not finding fault with God's scriptures. In fact, I find fault with people who desire to place themselves in the position of 'God'. I think we should debate but we should not claim to be able to have control over decisions that are not ours to make.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not finding fault with God's scriptures. In fact, I find fault with people who desire to place themselves in the position of 'God'. I think we should debate but we should not claim to be able to have control over decisions that are not ours to make.

I'm beginning to understand why some atheists on the forum are exaspirated with "Bible logic". If you really want to, you can find lots of clobber passages in the Bible for your favorite topic, but that doesn't really inspire confidence in the overall approach.

 

[Aviela]

I'm beginning to understand why some atheists on the forum are exaspirated with "Bible logic". If you really want to, you can find lots of clobber passages in the Bible for your favorite topic, but that doesn't really inspire confidence in the overall approach.

My intentions aren't to clobber anyone....then again maybe there is some intention to clobber a bit of those who desire to clobber others... However, if we are all busy clobbering each other that would get us no where.

 

[friend of]

@Jason0047

I'm going to emphasis some key words here in a scripture you posted.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That HE might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That HE might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).[/QUOTE]

Notice the emphasis on Jesus and not us?