• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Fossil Challenge for Evolutionists

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,282.00
Faith
Atheist
I know. I read The Naked Ape a long time ago.
We're very similar in many ways.
Ah, OK; so when you said, "...humans are VERY different from any other form of animal life", you really meant, "We're very similar in many ways". To me, these are somewhat contradictory.

The difference is that they have a body and a soul.
We have a body, a soul, and a spirit -- something that searches for what made us..I don't think animals search for what made them.
We're curious animals, like most mammals. Our cognitive capacities allow us to be curious about not just the world around us, but the past and the future, our origins and endings. Our difficulty with the concept of personal death and wish to avoid it leads us to imagine continuing on somehow, indefinitely. Observed deaths reinforce the idea of the departure of some animating substance or vital force. Our tendency to see agency in the unexplained makes us superstitious, magical thinkers, with a predilection for god beliefs.

But our rational intellectual capabilities have enabled us to demonstrate that superstitions and magical thinking are irrational and ineffective, the result of using simplistic heuristics in the wrong context.

This can't be done for god beliefs (and much of mysticism), because they're generally unfalsifiable, ill-defined, and have no discernable effects in the world; they exploit our overactive instinct for attributing agency & purpose, our apprehension at personal death, and our natural desire for comfort & security. It's hard to let go of a security blanket that wraps your whole life.

[note how attribution of agency is built into our everyday language, e.g. see 'they exploit' in blue above]

Spirit and soul are ill-defined concepts without physical justification, and require some awkward manoeuvring to avoid the 'problem of interaction' and physical law; but if not examined too closely, they're appealingly vague vehicles for the freedom of indefinite persistence.

Most believers prefer not to look too closely, raising faith and unquestioning belief to high virtue, casting doubt as weakness.
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Language isn't an organ. Typical creationist tactic - when you're shown to be wrong, move the goalposts.

i actually never said that it must be an organ. read again.


The ability to communicate is not restricted to humans. Please define "language" to show how it is a complex trait that other apes don't have. Then see if you can explain why the other apes do not have the trait - don't wait for somebody to explain it for you.

have you seen an ape (beside human if you consider human as ape) that is able to speak? its more complicated than you think:

Diverse genome study upends understanding of how language evolved

"Language is complicated, and was never going to be explained by a single mutation in modern humans, Fisher adds."
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ah, OK; so when you said, "...humans are VERY different from any other form of animal life", you really meant, "We're very similar in many ways". To me, these are somewhat contradictory.
I meant we're very similar in many ways, and very different in others. Maybe the word "very" shouldn't be there? Like, MANY and ALL, and NONE, and EVERY...it always turns out to be wrong.

I don't think I have to make two lists with you...
I'm sure you know them.

We're curious animals, like most mammals. Our cognitive capacities allow us to be curious about not just the world around us, but the past and the future, our origins and endings. Our difficulty with the concept of personal death and wish to avoid it leads us to imagine continuing on somehow, indefinitely. Observed deaths reinforce the idea of the departure of some animating substance or vital force. Our tendency to see agency in the unexplained makes us superstitious, magical thinkers, with a predilection for god beliefs.

But our rational intellectual capabilities have enabled us to demonstrate that superstitions and magical thinking are irrational and ineffective, the result of using simplistic heuristics in the wrong context.
I hope you're not going to say that God is a superstition. I've been Christian for about 40 years and I've heard it all. God is a myth, a superstition, a crutch, wishful thinking, fear of death, need for hope, etc. etc. etc. This is what persons think that have not had some kind of experience with God,,,,an experience that leads them to believe that a God exists. Whether or not He's involved with our world, I cannot be sure of....however, Jesus came here and that would demonstrate to me that He IS involved with His creation. But that leaves some problems for which we have no answer.

This can't be done for god beliefs (and much of mysticism), because they're generally unfalsifiable, ill-defined, and have no discernable effects in the world; they exploit our overactive instinct for attributing agency & purpose, our apprehension at personal death, and our natural desire for comfort & security. It's hard to let go of a security blanket that wraps your whole life.
I didn't have the security blanket my whole life...but it is better with it. And WHO is exploiting us and WHY.....(the churches?)

[note how attribution of agency is built into our everyday language, e.g. see 'they exploit' in blue above]
The blue words didn't get me anywhere....
Literally.


Spirit and soul are ill-defined concepts without physical justification, and require some awkward manoeuvring to avoid the 'problem of interaction' and physical law; but if not examined too closely, they're appealingly vague vehicles for the freedom of indefinite persistence.
ok...The blue went to a page about interaction.
It's much too complicated for me although I do understand what's it's speaking about. I find it a bit miraculous that I could tell my brain to hit the H key and it does. I don't know how this could be explained scientifically....It's an unseen force causing a seen action. The soul definitely exists - it's what makes us be different. Is it just a bunch of neurons in the brain doing something or other? And what about the spirit? Do monkeys wonder where they come from? I don't think so.

Most believers prefer not to look too closely, raising faith and unquestioning belief to high virtue, casting doubt as weakness.

Or maybe it's not important to them, or maybe they just don't understand it, or maybe it's just not necessary....
When you have God,,,you feel complete and the searching is over.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They really arent.

ID is going nowhere fast.
Who is ID?

I'm talking about scientists....
Should I post some again?

I don't think it would really make a difference to you or to me, or to anybody reading along.

We each believe what we believe.

I don't believe the language of DNA could have happened by chance. I think it was put there somehow.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Who is ID?

I'm talking about scientists....
Should I post some again?

I don't think it would really make a difference to you or to me, or to anybody reading along.

We each believe what we believe.

I don't believe the language of DNA could have happened by chance. I think it was put there somehow.
ID is a pseudo-scientific fraud concocted by radical Calvinists at the Discovery Institute to advance their Dominionist political agenda. In my opinion it is something that committed Christians should avoid.
 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Who is ID?

I'm talking about scientists....
Should I post some again?

I don't think it would really make a difference to you or to me, or to anybody reading along.

We each believe what we believe.

I don't believe the language of DNA could have happened by chance. I think it was put there somehow.

Belief has nothing to do with science.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ID is a pseudo-scientific fraud concocted by radical Calvinists at the Discovery Institute to advance their Dominionist political agenda. In my opinion it is something that committed Christians should avoid.
I don't know much about these movements, although, generally speaking, I'm against them.

I don't like radical anything...even radical Christianity is wrong and not what Jesus had in mind.
 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I don't know much about these movements, although, generally speaking, I'm against them.

I don't like radical anything...even radical Christianity is wrong and not what Jesus had in mind.

Yet you seem to be pushing ID (intelligent design).
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Belief has nothing to do with science.
Of course it does.
If you don't believe in an intelligent being, you'll say that the information in DNA came about by pure chance.

If one DOES believe in an intelligent being, he'll say that the being put the information language in there.

A person had to make up the language of the computer, for example; it didn't just happen by itself. What would be the chances of its happening all on its own - no matter how much time we waited.

Scientists are still looking for small particles and how life started because most do NOT believe in an intelligence.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yet you seem to be pushing ID (intelligent design).
Is that radical?
Is it any more radical than to believe that all we see came from nothing? That sounds more radical to me.
 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Of course it does.
If you don't believe in an intelligent being, you'll say that the information in DNA came about by pure chance.

If one DOES believe in an intelligent being, he'll say that the being put the information language in there.

A person had to make up the language of the computer, for example; it didn't just happen by itself. What would be the chances of its happening all on its own - no matter how much time we waited.

Scientists are still looking for small particles and how life started because most do NOT believe in an intelligence.

Nope, that is all wrong.

Science only deal with physical reality, god(s) and magic is not something science can test so its not applicable.

You are mixing religion with science, thats bad science and bad theology.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope, that is all wrong.

Science only deal with physical reality, god(s) and magic is not something science can test so its not applicable.

You are mixing religion with science, thats bad science and bad theology.
Are you a scientist?
Do you LISTEN to normal persons anymore?

You totally missed what I said.
What YOU personally believe, will lead you in life.
If you're a scientist,. your belief in God WILL affect how you understand everything you study.

Tour comes to mind again. But if I post a link you'll think I FOLLOW him, which I don't.

But how he thinks does support what I'm stating above.

For anyone interested: (I think it starts at point 13)

 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Are you a scientist?
Do you LISTEN to normal persons anymore?

You totally missed what I said.
What YOU personally believe, will lead you in life.
If you're a scientist,. your belief in God WILL affect how you understand everything you study.

Tour comes to mind again. But if I post a link you'll think I FOLLOW him, which I don't.

But how he thinks does support what I'm stating above.

For anyone interested: (I think it starts at point 13)


No, scientists leave religion out of science. Its as simple as that.

Arguing by youtube videos? No thanks thats just rude. Want to say something; say it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, scientists leave religion out of science. Its as simple as that.

Arguing by youtube videos? No thanks thats just rude. Want to say something; say it.
Unfortunately, Dr. Tour says it better than I can.
Want to talk about theology?
I'm good to go.

Oh. And science can be mixed with theology...
you seem to have a problem with this, but Christianity does not -- at least mainline christianity does not.

And why is arguing with anything rude?
What is it that Dr. Tour says that you don't agree with?
 
Upvote 0