LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

mmksparbud

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You may think it ridiculous, but you have no proof for what you say, so I could say that your thoughts are ridiculous too.

So I say they would not have had children in the garden. You say they could have eventually had children in the garden. Since we can not prove one way or the other, then we have to agree to disagree, but neither position is a ridiculous position.

But since they had no children up until the fall (and who knows how long they were in the garden until the fall) my position is more tenable than yours. So stop with the ridiculouses.

And I do apologize for the ridiculous comment--however, often, there is just no other way to word things than to be blunt! I do say things rather harshly at times. I try, I really do, to not be rude, but cut us some slack---you guys have some truly bizarre ideas that just floor us.
 
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Peter1000

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What prove do you have that Adam and Eve would never have been able to have children? God told them to!! You think given a command by God to do something means they aren't going to? This isn't a matter of choosing to disobey what God said NOT to do, be fruitful and multiply means they would have done so. All living things were given that command---except the angels. God made them to reproduce or He wouldn't have made them male and female! Children are a gift from God---not Satan! Everything was made to reproduce. Only JS thinks otherwise and you blindly follow instead of what the bible clearly says! You really believe that God made them male and female for the purpose of reproduction and then they wouldn't be able to so unless they sinned???? Where is that anywhere but in the mind of JS???

I do not have proof that Adam and Eve would never have been able to have children before the fall. You do not have proof that they would have been able to have children before the fall, so all of this discussion is speculation.

God gave at least 2 interesting commandments.
1) be fruitful and multiply (although Adam and Eve were like little children, not knowing that they were even naked) Could they have learned what sex was like and had children, no way of knowing from the scriptures.
2) don't eat of the forbidden fruit

We know they disobeyed God and partook of the fruit.
We know they disobeyed God and did not multiply, before the fall. OR they had no capacity to know each other and have children until after the fall.

IOW we get to believe what we wish, without anyone saying that is ridiculous, and without a strenuous argument. And without referring to JS. JS had the right to believe and teach what he thought on the subject, without being hammered for his thoughts either. I mean, since you cannot prove your position, it seems a little silly to attack another persons position on this subject. Does that make sense?
 
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Peter1000

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And I do apologize for the ridiculous comment--however, often, there is just no other way to word things than to be blunt! I do say thi8ngs rather harshly at times. I try, I really do, to not be rude, but cut us some slack---you guys have some truly bizarre ideas that just floor us.
We do have some bizarre slant on what mainline Christians have thought about for centuries, so I do cut you some slack, and I love our conversations, so all is good.
 
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mmksparbud

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I do not have proof that Adam and Eve would never have been able to have children before the fall. You do not have proof that they would have been able to have children before the fall, so all of this discussion is speculation.

God gave at least 2 interesting commandments.
1) be fruitful and multiply (although Adam and Eve were like little children, not knowing that they were even naked) Could they have learned what sex was like and had children, no way of knowing from the scriptures.
2) don't eat of the forbidden fruit

We know they disobeyed God and partook of the fruit.
We know they disobeyed God and did not multiply, before the fall. OR they had no capacity to know each other and have children until after the fall.

IOW we get to believe what we wish, without anyone saying that is ridiculous, and without a strenuous argument. And without referring to JS. JS had the right to believe and teach what he thought on the subject, without being hammered for his thoughts either. I mean, since you cannot prove your position, it seems a little silly to attack another persons position on this subject. Does that make sense?

The point is that God had set everything up to be reproductive. It makes absolutely no sense and goes completely against His character that He would create them to be reproductive and then they would not have been. He doesn't create what is not necessary. The one thing that nobody, including the lowest form of animals, needs is to have lessons on having sex. It may take a little time, but it will be figured out. They have to be careful in homes for the mentally retarded---they figure it out very early without anyone saying a word about it. I worked in one. Adam and Eve were not stupid---they were innocent, but highly intelligent. God did not create a couple of dumb Neanderthals. Have you any idea of what the so called idiot-savants can do? I don't like the word idiot. The real Rain Man has read 12,000 books and remembers everything about them! With his left eye he can read the left page and with the right eye he can read the right page and read them both at the same time in 3 seconds and remember everything! He remembers every note of music he has ever heard---he also can't button his shirt. Now, what do you think Adam and Eve could do having been created as total savants without any idiot part? Sex is so basic -- if an uneducated mentally retarded couple can figure it out without any instructions---Adam and Eve wouldn't have had any trouble at all.
JS, and anyone else, has the right to believe that Daffy Duck is God. I also have the right to believe that anyone who does is totally missing something.
 
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Peter1000

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The point is that God had set everything up to be reproductive. It makes absolutely no sense and goes completely against His character that He would create them to be reproductive and then they would not have been. He doesn't create what is not necessary. The one thing that nobody, including the lowest form of animals, needs is to have lessons on having sex. It may take a little time, but it will be figured out. They have to be careful in homes for the mentally retarded---they figure it out very early without anyone saying a word about it. I worked in one. Adam and Eve were not stupid---they were innocent, but highly intelligent. God did not create a couple of dumb Neanderthals. Have you any idea of what the so called idiot-savants can do? I don't like the word idiot. The real Rain Man has read 12,000 books and remembers everything about them! With his left eye he can read the left page and with the right eye he can read the right page and read them both at the same time in 3 seconds and remember everything! He remembers every note of music he has ever heard---he also can't button his shirt. Now, what do you think Adam and Eve could do having been created as total savants without any idiot part? Sex is so basic -- if an uneducated mentally retarded couple can figure it out without any instructions---Adam and Eve wouldn't have had any trouble at all.
JS, and anyone else, has the right to believe that Daffy Duck is God. I also have the right to believe that anyone who does is totally missing something.
You are arguing so vehemently, with only an opinion to guide you.

That Daffy Duck is God (there you go again,) is a little different than, did Adam and Eve have children before the fall? Again, we have no proof, either way, so nobody is totally missing something.

Lets put this discussion to sleep, we cannot solve it. We both can speculate, but cannot know the answer. The scriptues just do not tell us enough to know for sure.
 
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Rescued One

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You are in Genesis 1. This all happened spiritually in heaven before the natural creation in Genesis 2.

Proverbs 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Wouldn't you think that the first child of Adam and Eve in the garden would have been an occasion of joy and happiness? Absolutely, so why is it not recorded, and what is the name of that child? Tell me why we don't have the name of the child?

You can't argue from silence. Who said they were incapable of having children? Who told you how long they were in the garden prior to being expelled?

Proverbs 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
 
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Rescued One

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You are arguing so vehemently, with only an opinion to guide you.

That Daffy Duck is God (there you go again,) is a little different than, did Adam and Eve have children before the fall? Again, we have no proof, either way, so nobody is totally missing something.

Lets put this discussion to sleep, we cannot solve it. We both can speculate, but cannot know the answer. The scriptues just do not tell us enough to know for sure.

You weren't speculating. You based your remarks on the Mormon scripture in The Pearl of Great Price:

The Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have
known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Maybe you forgot that verse.
 
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Rescued One

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You said: "You claim that God loves every one of His children. Who are they?"
Every person that ever lived, that is alive, or that will live on the earth or any other world who is a spirit child of God. However not all of God's children love God their Father enough to keep His commandments. They separate themselves from God the Father and His kingdom. God's commandments are love. Some of His children want to love God with passive love, but God wants them to love Him.


So if they aren't devout followers of Joseph Smith, they're choosing to not love Him and thereby will suffer. Mormonism is WRONG.
 
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He does separate those who love Him (His sheep) from those who don't (His goats). That is why He said:

(New Testament | Matthew 6:33)

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Are you calling those in the lower kingdoms goats? Why are those called "kingdoms of glory?"
 
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He is the way

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So if they aren't devout followers of Joseph Smith, they're choosing to not love Him and thereby will suffer. Mormonism is WRONG.
No, that is not what I said at all. Those who love God will keep His commandments.
(New Testament | John 15:10)

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
(New Testament | 1 John 5:2 - 3)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(New Testament | John 14:15 - 16)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
These scriptures apply to ALL of God's children. However those who do not keep the commandments are those who do not love God.
(New Testament | John 14:21 - 24)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

This is the key to be able to live in God's kingdom.
 
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He is the way

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Are you calling those in the lower kingdoms goats? Why are those called "kingdoms of glory?"
Who called them goats?:
(New Testament | Matthew 25:32 - 34)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There is a kingdom prepared for those who love God and a place for those who don't love God.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:46)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(New Testament | Revelation 21:1 - 8)

1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As for kingdoms of glory:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:40 - 53)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that the sun, moon, and stars all have glory. However some have more than others.
 
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Peter1000

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You weren't speculating. You based your remarks on the Mormon scripture in The Pearl of Great Price:

The Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have
known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Maybe you forgot that verse.
I did not forget that verse. I was quoting from the bible, and the bible is totally unclear as to whether Adam and Eve could or could not have had children prior to the fall. So according to the bible we both are speculating. From the bible we must give each other a pass for what we believe. State our case from what we can glean from the bible and if the other person is not convinced, then we have to move on without malice towards each other. Right?

Of course, I know what I am talking about given the information from our scriptures. Having a prophet of God makes it easier to decipher the bible. More information is good.
 
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mmksparbud

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Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
I did not forget that verse. I was quoting from the bible, and the bible is totally unclear as to whether Adam and Eve could or could not have had children prior to the fall. So according to the bible we both are speculating. From the bible we must give each other a pass for what we believe. State our case from what we can glean from the bible and if the other person is not convinced, then we have to move on without malice towards each other. Right?

Of course, I know what I am talking about given the information from our scriptures. Having a prophet of God makes it easier to decipher the bible. More information is good.

We absolutely are not speculating when we say that they certainly would have had children had they not fallen. It is in deed a fact as it was a biological command from God that could not be ignored. This was not a matter of choice! He instilled in every living thing the need to reproduce. What God commands, will be done.
Psa_33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

He certainly would not force them to do so, but it was a need in them and still is to come together and be one---or He would not have created Eve. He could have just created another Adam to be like the angels, just another man to keep him company---He created a woman, His helper, His companion, His biological other half to create another human---there would have been no way they could not have had children.
Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

To be one flesh was commanded before the fall.

There is no need for speculation about it.
 
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I did not forget that verse. I was quoting from the bible, and the bible is totally unclear as to whether Adam and Eve could or could not have had children prior to the fall. So according to the bible we both are speculating. From the bible we must give each other a pass for what we believe. State our case from what we can glean from the bible and if the other person is not convinced, then we have to move on without malice towards each other. Right?

Of course, I know what I am talking about given the information from our scriptures. Having a prophet of God makes it easier to decipher the bible. More information is good.

More information, such as Mormonism, is damnable. Add thou not unto His words.

No, you were NOT speculating if you still believe Mormonism. Mormons already have a strong belief that Mormons are right according to your own scripture.
 
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I did not forget that verse. I was quoting from the bible, and the bible is totally unclear as to whether Adam and Eve could or could not have had children prior to the fall. So according to the bible we both are speculating. From the bible we must give each other a pass for what we believe. State our case from what we can glean from the bible and if the other person is not convinced, then we have to move on without malice towards each other. Right?

Malice towards each other? I've never wanted harm to come to another person. Discipline, yes. Harm, NO!

 
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Who called them goats?:
(New Testament | Matthew 25:32 - 34)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There is a kingdom prepared for those who love God and a place for those who don't love God.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:46)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(New Testament | Revelation 21:1 - 8)

1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As for kingdoms of glory:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:40 - 53)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Note that the sun, moon, and stars all have glory. However some have more than others.

If whoremongers and unbelievers are righteous lambs, why at they not allowed in God's presence?
 
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Who called them goats?:
(New Testament | Matthew 25:32 - 34)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There is a kingdom prepared for those who love God and a place for those who don't love God.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:46)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In Mormonism, many are punished for failing to obey. They will be punished for eternity. ONLY righteous Mormon temple goers have life eternal. Those in the lower kingdoms are given immortality only.

You might shrink from calling them goats, but they don't have eternal life. They certainly aren't sheep if they are ostracized.
 
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If whoremongers and unbelievers are righteous lambs, why at they not allowed in God's presence?
Did I say whoremongers and unbelievers are righteous lambs? You must be pretty mixed up. I quoted this scripture:
(New Testament | Revelation 21:1 - 8)

1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus said:
(New Testament | Matthew 4:17)
17 ¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 
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