What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

[Maria Billingsley]

No, you said that 501c3 makes the pastor the CEO. It does not.

Or if you like "Senior leader". Like I said this is probably not in your individual church as you are Lutheran. You are under a corporate church "umbrella" and he/she may not be a Pastor or may be. Anyway, your point taken.
Blessings

 

[Oldmantook]

The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

by Rusty Entrekin:
The New Testament Way to Meet

• How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
• If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
• Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
• Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. What! Came the word of God out from you? Or came it to you only?
• If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
• Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently, and in order.
  1 Co 14:26-40 (KJV)

Our Modern Way of Meeting

• How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, the pastor hath a doctrine, and the minister of music hath psalms. Let all things be done unto edifying.
• If anyone besides the pastor hath a doctrine, let him not speak; let him hold his peace. Let him sit in the pew, and face the back of the neck of the person which sitteth ahead of him.
• Let the people keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith church tradition. But if they will learn anything, let them ask their pastor after the service, for it is a shame for a layman to speak in the church. For the pastor, he hath a seminary degree, and the layman, he hath not so lofty a degree.
• If any man desire to remain a church member in good standing, let him acknowledge that what I write to you is the command of the denominational headquarters. But if any man ignore this, he shall be promptly escorted out the door by the ushers.

 

[Kaon]

You. Are adding your own interpretation into the text. It has no caveats like you say. Both Paul and Peter said to submit to the governing authorities, and that was Nero at the time, who loved to feed Christians to the lions.

It doesn't matter who is in power, we were always supposed to follow the Law of the land until it conflicts with the Word of God and/or the Most High God. Paul and Peter aren't saying anything new. It has been twisted to support earthly institutions and government - as control of the people. We never learn, even if the Most High God tells us we aren't supposed to be ruled by men since we have had One from the beginning (1 Samuel 8:7).

If you follow the Law of the land over the law of the Most High God, then you are creating your own stumbling block, and marking your allegiance. It is as simple as that; the Law of the Most High God trumps all leadership and "government" in all dimensions of creation. Disobeying the Most High God leads to destruction.

 

[gideon123]

To the OP ...

It is noticeable that many people who come to this Forum seem to be living in isolation ... they have no church.

You cannot be a Christian in isolarion. Fellowship is absolutely essential for a Christian to grow. For this reason Jesus said ... I am the Vine and you are the branches.

Does a vine exist with one stem and one leaf? No. For the same reason, you cannot manufacture your your own concept of Jesus, to justify the fact that you do not belong to a fellowship.

You need to belong.

A few words on an Internet forum are not a substitute for having a real fellowship with true believers.

You are trying to create a personal justification for not attending church. The reason does not exist.

Christ said ... I am the Vine and you are the branches. He meant ... you plural ... many believers together. Not in isolation to each other. Faith should be shared, Love should be shared!

Blessings!

 

[Strong in Him]

The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

No it's not; it's based on Christians meeting together for fellowship, teaching an to worship God.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Your churches where you are nay do that; ours do not.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

I know of no preachers/clergy who lord it over their congregations - who say "look at me; I'm up here, you're down there and you have to do as I say."
They're there to lead worship, not gloat about their positions.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Oldmantook]

To the OP ...

It is noticeable that many people who come to this Forum seem to be living in isolation ... they have no church.

You cannot be a Christian in isolarion. Fellowship is absolutely essential for a Christian to grow. For this reason Jesus said ... I am the Vine and you are the branches.

Does a vine exist with one stem and one leaf? No. For the same reason, you cannot manufacture your your own concept of Jesus, to justify the fact that you do not belong to a fellowship.

You need to belong.

A few words on an Internet forum are not a substitute for having a real fellowship with true believers.

You are trying to create a personal justification for not attending church. The reason does not exist.

Christ said ... I am the Vine and you are the branches. He meant ... you plural ... many believers together. Not in isolation to each other. Faith should be shared, Love should be shared!

Blessings!

You don't attend church (building). You are the church. The church which was was a Spirit-led organism has morphed into a hierarchical organization. Indeed, we should meet in order to edify and encourage one another as the scriptures say; however the nature of our Sunday worship meetings don't reflect that. In our formal services, only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention. The great majority remain spectators content to sit and enjoy the entertainment thereby disqualifying the NFL as the greatest spectator sport on Sundays.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1 Corinthians 9:14
So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel

Yes and this is an option that Paul refused for good reason.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson

 

[☦Marius☦]

The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

How does this coincide with Hebrews 13:17?

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you."

Considering the leaders talked about are the first church elders, how is following them unbiblical?

 

[Kaon]

You don't attend church (building). You are the church. The church which was was a Spirit-led organism has morphed into a hierarchical organization. Indeed, we should meet in order to edify and encourage one another as the scriptures say; however the nature of our Sunday worship meetings don't reflect that. In our formal services, only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention. The great majority remain spectators content to sit and enjoy the entertainment thereby disqualifying the NFL as the greatest spectator sport on Sundays.

QFT. Much more concise than I have put it.

 

[Strong in Him]

The doctrines inside scripture before they are extracted and changed state specifically that servant hood trumps dominance. Every time.

I don't know what kind of church you go to, but let me tell you how it is in the churches I know about.
The congregations vote people onto a church council/PCC/church leadership team. Those teams meet regularly to discuss church matters. Most of them may be lead by the Minister/vicar or whoever, but when our Minister was on sabbatical, they were lead by the stewards.
On that team there is a treasurer, a property secretary and maybe others too. Even the treasurer doesn't tell people how much to give each week, never mind the Minister.
The Minster leads the meetings; he/she does not direct the decisions.

Worship is planned separately by another team. In our church, anyone can go to a worship planning meeting. In the church that I grew up in, the worship committee was a separate group of people - elected, I think, from those on the PCC.

The Minister may say that they think we should do a sermon series/teach a particular book of Scripture. The worship meeting may not agree and, even if they do, if preachers don't want to take part they make themselves unavailable. No one is forced to do anything.

In what sense does the Minister dominate people?

In every aspect the theology surrounding churched leadership is corrupted and domineering

As I said; speak for yourself.
I do not recognise that in any of our churches.

 

[Kaon]

How does this coincide with Hebrews 13:17?

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you."

Considering the leaders talked about are the first church elders, how is following them unbiblical?

This was an allusion to the Hebrews demanding rule under men instead of God. They didn't even follow their leader - Samuel (and his sons went astray). They didn't respect the good leader they had, and demanded worldly government as they saw it. They rejected the Most High God as their King, and chose men to rule over them in government form. The Most High God listed the things added that they would have to do in order to have a worldly king like they wanted. This is a double-edge verse to convict and remind.

You are supposed to submit to the leader that watches over your soul. That is just respect. Those leaders are accountable for their exploits, but we do not have to be fools. We are told many times about antichrists, evil rulers, warmongers, users, false prophets and so many other symbols of failed systems and gods: we are not expected to blindly follow these systems. Whenever it conflicts with the Word of God, we are to disobey the law of the land. There is no in between about this. You would need to know what law you are expected to follow to know when to keep the law of the land.

 

[Strong in Him]

All churches that meet on sundays in a building adhere to the same SYSTEM of a semi boss over the common people.
Name one that does not ...

Ours doesn't.
Worship may be lead by one person or by a team. That is nothing to do with being a boss over common people.

They all use differing titles ... But the system pattern remains the same.
1 person at the front calling the shots.

"Calling the shots"??
You mean, having prayerfully decided what hymns they will sing that day or which passage of Scripture to look at? Most churches here use the Lectionary - the passages of Scripture have been decided by others.
I would guess even the early church had leaders. Unless a congregation are going to play musical bingo on a Sunday and each read their favourite passages, there needs to be some kind of order.

And to justify this system they use a corrupted theology that one is taught from people . not directly from scripture

That's a massive judgement; can you back it up?

 

[Archivist]

You don't attend church (building). You are the church. The church which was was a Spirit-led organism has morphed into a hierarchical organization. Indeed, we should meet in order to edify and encourage one another as the scriptures say; however the nature of our Sunday worship meetings don't reflect that. In our formal services, only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention. The great majority remain spectators content to sit and enjoy the entertainment thereby disqualifying the NFL as the greatest spectator sport on Sundays.

At my church the choir sings an anthem, leads the musical liturgy, and leads the singing of the hymns. The choir is not made up of paid professionals.

The first and second readings are read by a member of the congregation. He/she is not a paid professional.

The psalm is read and/or sung by a member of the congregation. He/she is not a paid professional.

The pastor is assisted by a deacon who helps lead the liturgy and offers prayers. He/she is not a paid professional.

Two Communion assistants help the pastor and deacon distribute Holy Communion. They are not paid professionals.

The Congregation participates in the singing of hymns and the singing and reading of the liturgy. They are not spectators.

Yes, the pastor who offers the sermon, prayers and blessings is paid. The organist is also paid a small stipend. However, it is not true that "only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention."

 

[☦Marius☦]

This was an allusion to the Hebrews demanding rule under men instead of God. They didn't even follow their leader - Samuel (and his sons went astray). They didn't respect the good leader they had, and demanded worldly government as they saw it. They rejected the Most High God as their King, and chose men to rule over them in government form. The Most High God listed the things added that they would have to do in order to have a worldly king like they wanted. This is a double-edge verse to convict and remind.

You are supposed to submit to the leader that watches over your soul. That is just respect. Those leaders are accountable for their exploits, but we do not have to be fools. We are told many times about antichrists, evil rulers, warmongers, users, false prophets and so many other symbols of failed systems and gods: we are not expected to blindly follow these systems. Whenever it conflicts with the Word of God, we are to disobey the law of the land. There is no in between about this. You would need to know what law you are expected to follow to know when to keep the law of the land.

Seems like a stretch to fit your narrative. Especially considering what the elders the apostles selected wrote about the authority of Bishops.

 

[☦Marius☦]

The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

Also I find this strange considering the apostles and Christ taught in the synagogues up until the destruction of the Temple. It was only afterward that Christians started creating their own worship spaces. Yes they would meet in each other's homes for communion, after they had left the synagogue (gentiles we're permitted to stay in the outer court.)

 

[Ing Bee]

Have you noticed the sharp rebuke that Simon Magus got in Acts 8. He offered money for the anointing.
I see a clear message in this - there should never have been renumeration for spiritual service. Support any person who lives sacrificially in service for Jesus but never for a wage. This immediately links the spiritual with the commercial. As Jesus demonstrated with anger in the temple there is no place for this.
This is such a fundamental and universal error in Church structure and leads to all manner of compromise. I fully support giving voluntarily to those fruitfully serving but the minute they are paid we have a business and that flies in the face of the heart of Love enjoyed by the early church in Acts. It is no wonder that the first 5 chapters of Acts are rarely preached because the message is not practiced.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Hi Carl-
I am sympathetic to your concern about commercialization, but any such arguments should be grounded on scripture. There is certainly room to critique all kinds of financial abuses and misuses in modern churches and plenty of Biblical grounds to do so. However, I disagree with your use of the Simon Magus story for two reasons:

First, Peter condemns Simon for wanted to "purchase" the power of the Spirit which is freely given to all believers and whose gifts are apportioned among the church as He wills. It is not about remuneration for service.

Additionally, Paul is clear on several occasions that recompense for certain types of service is not only acceptable but right:

In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul equates ruling elders, especially preachers and teachers, with deserving "double honor" - the equivalent of wages in exchange for labor.
"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

To the Corinthians (1 Cor. 9:12-14), although he has never made use of the right, Paul confirms that proclaimers of the gospel deserve to make their living by the gospel (i.e. paid to do it), just like the priests of the temple did.
"Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

 

[Calvin_1985]

The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money.

It does two things JESUS said are NOT to be so.

It exercises dominion OVER people
And Lords it over people.

Jesus said that is the ways of the gentile
Heathen to exercise authority and lord it over.. But with YOU...it is not so.

Yet the entire sunday and saturday system is based upon a theology that opposes the words of JESUS.

Jesus also said not to judge according to appaerance, but to make righteous judgement. I think you need to step back and look at the judgement you are making in which we have all been guilty of including myself. We cannot look at a name, specefic gathering time and place and assume that each and every one has a Pastor and staff that is all about money and control. My advice is that you step back and find yourself a place and make judgements regarding the substance of the people within and whether they truly Loce as Jesus Christ loves.

 

[Justified112]

Really? I am not aware this in normative. Is this the case in your denomination? That would be refreshing.

80% of churches in the US have congregations under 150 in membership and less than that in regular attendance. >>> https://factsandtrends.net/2016/02/...hurches-fall-below-100-in-worship-attendance/

There are many cases where the pastors work full time jobs and do not take a salary from their church or in some cases, only take enough to cover minor expenses like gas and car upkeep. I know pastors that do not live in the same city that they pastor in or in some cases actually preach at more than one church on a given Sunday.

Pastors in of large churches who draw large salaries are actually not the norm. But there is nothing unprincipled about that, given that larger churches have more responsibilities and thus, more expectations of their pastors. Pastors at larger churches work very, very hard. Preaching is less than 1% of what a pastor does throughout the week. Most people are unaware of what pastors do and how hard they actually work.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, that is not what we gather from the story of Simon Magus. Offering money for the anointing has absolutely nothing to do with helping a pastor financially.

#1, that is not what Paul said: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1Ti 5:17-18) That passage has long been understood as an allowance for the financial support of a pastor or other minister.



The first five chapters of Acts do not make any case at all against paying a pastor or other minister.
One of the hazards of being a bi-vocational pastor is that the pastor isn't always available when he is needed. He is the servant of a secular company that needs him on a regular basis for a job. He isn't free to visit and minister during the week. He barely has time to prepare for Sunday. He has to juggle a church, a family and a secular job, and all are vying for his time. And somewhere in the middle of all of that, he has to find time to sleep.

If he sacrifices time on the job, asks for too many days off for ministry purposes, he will lose that job because his boss needs him on the job and if he can't be there, he will fire the pastor and then the pastor has nothing. So, there are some advantages to taking a salary at the church so that it frees up the pastor to be the pastor and to be a father to his family.​

Paul refused the option of having a wage and for good reason.

In early acts there was a community of believers that naturally supported eachother.

Now we have a business that disconnects us from each other.

We are exhorted to return to our first love - the love that flowed, breaking down interpersonal barriers, promoted sharing, no one was in need.

Why do we not travel back there - because there is a cost.

We prefer our lifestyles dictated by commercial demands rather than God.

So we have little impact on the world because the world sees no visible love to praise God about and be drawn into the kingdom.

John 17 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[Oldmantook]

At my church the choir sings an anthem, leads the musical liturgy, and leads the singing of the hymns. The choir is not made up of paid professionals.

The first and second readings are read by a member of the congregation. He/she is not a paid professional.

The psalm is read and/or sung by a member of the congregation. He/she is not a paid professional.

The pastor is assisted by a deacon who helps lead the liturgy and offers prayers. He/she is not a paid professional.

Two Communion assistants help the pastor and deacon distribute Holy Communion. They are not paid professionals.

The Congregation participates in the singing of hymns and the singing and reading of the liturgy. They are not spectators.

Yes, the pastor who offers the sermon, prayers and blessings is paid. The organist is also paid a small stipend. However, it is not true that "only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention."

Then your church is the exception; not the rule is it? Therefore it is indeed true that the vast majority of church services function otherwise.