Evolution is mathematically impossible

[VirOptimus]

I doubt is all data is actually tested. Most is run through the mysterious process of natural selection.

Its all in the open. Thats the thing about science.

 

[Queller]

Science is withholding the data I need to construct the equation.

If you can't construct an equation to determine the probability then it is logically impossible for you to have determined that something is improbable.

 

[dad]

Seriously? what a disturbed and disturbing thing to say

Child sacrifice/abortion is disturbing. But lots of people think there should be more of it to limit population growth. If they had their way, maybe they would advocate, like you do, for mandatory procedures.

Everyone has a choice, whether peasant or noble. It's a question of what is best for everyone

More of who gets to decide what is best for everyone...despite their wishes!

- would you rather have preventable diseases return to their pre-vaccination levels of harm and death, or to keep them at almost insignificant levels and even eradicate them?

The whole package deal of the medical profession includes killing babies and drugs, and all sorts of things that are harmful. Why would I expect all people to be forced to cow tow to them and their opinions?

Vaccination is estimated to have saved more lives than any intervention besides clean water and sanitation.

Not as many lives as abortion and wars killed I suspect. How much water did the Hiroshima blast clean up? The Pacific atomic tests? How about all the pesticides and fertilizers and chemical agents science has helped man dump into the waters and soil? Why would I focus only on some positive aspects of what modern science offers mankind? Why would I also reject free choice of mankind in deciding what they feel is good or bad from science?? Some people seem to think all free choice means is that we should murder babies.

So you don't take medicines? In terms of individual risk, vaccines, in general, are lower risk and more effective than many common medicines, including antibiotics.

What I take I do by choice generally.

 

[dad]

That's... not my point.

What I am saying is that such calculations are not meaningful to begin with because they don't have enough information to be properly formulated in the first place.

Plus, calculating probabilities of something after the fact is irrelevant.

Fine.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Child sacrifice/abortion is disturbing. But lots of people think there should be more of it to limit population growth. If they had their way, maybe they would advocate, like you do, for mandatory procedures.

I don't advocate mandatory procedures to limit population growth.

World population growth is slowing down anyway (and population is declining in many countries) as a result of decreasing poverty and increasing education.

 

[dad]

I don't advocate mandatory procedures to limit population growth.

World population growth is slowing down anyway (and population is declining in many countries) as a result of decreasing poverty and increasing education.

Great, so in that respect you differ from them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If you can't construct an equation to determine the probability then it is logically impossible for you to have determined that something is improbable.

I can't construct an equation without the data.

 

[the iconoclast]

It depends on the pastor.

Hey hey my dear speedwell

Fair enough. I noticed you changed your profile pic, whats up?

 

[the iconoclast]

I base my trust on track record and reliable and repeatable results, end of story.

Hey hey my dear bhsmte

Lets consider God. What do you base your rejection of God on?

Religious opinions are a dime a dozen and are all subjective.

How so?

Hope that clears it up for you.

Not yet. We have so much more to go.

Cheers

 

[Speedwell]

Hey hey my dear speedwell

Fair enough. I noticed you changed your profile pic, whats up?

It concerns the political situation in this country. I find that I don't want to be known as a Christian any more. This creates a serious spiritual problem for me, of course. I am going on retreat shortly and hope to be able to receive some guidance through prayer. My faith in Christ is strong, but right now I'm ashamed to be a Christian.

 

[the iconoclast]

It concerns the political situation in this country. I find that I don't want to be known as a Christian any more. This creates a serious spiritual problem for me, of course. I am going on retreat shortly and hope to be able to receive some guidance through prayer. My faith in Christ is strong, but right now I'm ashamed to be a Christian.

Hey hey brother

Saint im so sorry to hear this situation of yours. Stay strong and never be ashamed of what you are and do not compromise. My prayers are added to yours and God bless you brother in the name of Jesus.

I love you

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Great, so in that respect you differ from them.

Yes.

I find it interesting that when I express my view that people have a duty to take measures that involve minimal effort and risk to protect themselves and others from serious harm - a duty that seems reasonably well aligned with Christian values, you conclude that I advocate the mandatory killing of babies...

When a simple ethical proposition on vaccination is presented, and instead of producing a rational counter-argument, produces inchoate invocations of pollution, war, atomic catastrophe, and suggestions that being in favour implies advocacy of mandatory child sacrifice, overreaction and the 'Backfire effect' spring to mind. 'The Oatmeal' comics have a particularly good treatment of this: Believe.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I can't construct an equation without the data.

Have you actually looked for the data?

 

[the iconoclast]

That's not what 'random' means in science.

Hey hey sfs I could not find a link to how science defines random. Could you give me a reference?

'Random' means that the specific outcome of a process or event is unpredictable.

Well unpredictable means not able to be predicted. To predict means to say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.

The outcome of a process should be predictable ie a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end which is to say specific (.eg clearly defined or identified).

A process has a desired outcome. In this case you are suggesting the outcome may be random. With nature yes the outcome will be unpredictable when we consider variations but predictable when i consider a prcoess ie a series of events which lead to rain or a series of events which lead to reproduction.

We are not discussing random or unpredictable outcomes we are discussing random series or events that lead to an outcome ie this notion of 'random processes'.

The aging process may have different outcomes for the individual but would you call the aging process a random process?

What would be an example of a random process?

From Randomness: "Randomness is the lack of pattern or predictability in events.

I looked up randomness.

Randomness is the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization; unpredictability.

As compared to random. Random is to be made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.

Predict is to say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.

Unpredictability is the inability to be predicted; changeability.

Random is to no method, predict is to say will happen. Unpredictable is the inability to see what will happen. Randomness is to see no pattern.

Process is a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
Lets combine randomness and process

A randomness process is a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end but having the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization to acheive that particular end.

What do you think about this definition and could you explain how it works with an example?

A random sequence of events, symbols or steps has no order and does not follow an intelligible pattern or combination. Individual random events are by definition unpredictable, but in many cases the frequency of different outcomes over a large number of events (or "trials") is predictable.

Individual outcomes are unpredictable or in the case of hand vs fire predictable. Could you please show me a random process?

Lets say I get married (need a willing girl and most important consent!!! ;p). We procreate and the child is human. The unpredictable varitation will be gender, hair colour and all those other things that make you and i unique.

The process to procreate does not change when we consider an embryo and male matter and process to get a particular end does not change.

A random step in this process cannot happen when we consider how life is created or if this is not the case, could you please correct?

Keep in short, sweat and full of meat. I hate it when there is not enough meat on the plate.

For example, when throwing two dice, the outcome of any particular roll is unpredictable, but a sum of 7 will occur twice as often as 4.

Did you not follow a process to get this unpredictable outcome? Did this happen randomly?

In this view, randomness is a measure of uncertainty of an outcome, rather than haphazardness, and applies to concepts of chance, probability, and information entropy." An example of a random natural process is a rainstorm. Precisely where each raindrop falls is unpredictable, even though the whole process follows physical laws.

Where each individual raindrops will fall are unpredictable, but what about standing under a ripe cloud. The prcoess that leads to that rain is known. Is rain a random process?

No, I don't remember you ever asking me anything about any human ancestor.

Thats all good my brother. I was blessed with a reasonable memory but then again you may enter into more conversations than i do. I record most conversations for continuity.

I implied the evolutionary tree of life was a useless artwork and did not accept it as 'proof' for evolution. We got into a bit and discovered this scientific tree of life was showing common descent. I asked some questions and we got to this.

Sfs - "Common descent just means that physically, different species descend from a single common ancestor. For example, humans and chimpanzees are descended from a single species that lived something like 7 million years ago."

Im like cool.

Icon - "What was this species that lived 7 million years ago?"

If you would not mind and indulge this old gentleman - me - What was this species that lived 7 million years ago?

Cheers and God bless you saint

Edit.
Also please explain how a series of actions with a particular outcome can have no method to reach a particular outcome?

Why cant i bake a cake using random methods and having no pattern

 

[bhsmte]

Hey hey my dear bhsmte

Lets consider God. What do you base your rejection of God on?



How so?



Not yet. We have so much more to go.

Cheers

Lack of evidence to support the existance of a god with the characteristics the christian theology applies. Quite simple really.

Religious opinions are a dime a dozen, because there are countless different ones, even amongst christianity itself. You see, people just choose their flavor and it typically is one that suits their personal psychological needs.

 

[sfs]

Hey hey sfs I could not find a link to how science defines random. Could you give me a reference?

I gave you an extended quotation from and a link to the wikipedia article on randomness.

Well unpredictable means not able to be predicted. To predict means to say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.

The outcome of a process should be predictable ie a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end which is to say specific (.eg clearly defined or identified).

I looked up randomness.

Randomness is the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization; unpredictability.

As compared to random. Random is to be made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.

Predict is to say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.

Unpredictability is the inability to be predicted; changeability.

Random is to no method, predict is to say will happen. Unpredictable is the inability to see what will happen. Randomness is to see no pattern.

Process is a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
Lets combine randomness and process

A randomness process is a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end but having the quality or state of lacking a pattern or principle of organization to acheive that particular end.

What do you think about this definition and could you explain how it works with an example?

I think it's all wrong and repetition of things that I've already corrected. Which are you interested in, learning the concepts scientists actually use or looking up words in the dictionary? I told you what a random process is. If you don't understand part of what I said, ask.

Where each individual raindrops will fall are unpredictable, but what about standing under a ripe cloud. The prcoess that leads to that rain is known. Is rain a random process?

Yes, for the reason you yourself state: where each raindrop falls is unpredictable.

Icon - "What was this species that lived 7 million years ago?"

If you would not mind and indulge this old gentleman - me - What was this species that lived 7 million years ago?

The species that lived 7 million years ago was the species that lived 7 million years ago. It (probably) doesn't have a name -- you can call it "Bob" if you like. Beyond the name, what are you asking about it?

Also please explain how a series of actions with a particular outcome can have no method to reach a particular outcome?

I don't know what your question means or what actions you're talking about. Various steps in a rain shower lead to a particular outcome. It doesn't matter whether you call those steps a method or not, they still happen and still lead to that outcome.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Have you actually looked for the data?

This is what I get when I go looking. This is an example of the overall confusion that takes place around the ToE. Here a long-held evolutionary concept is being questioned.

Edge.org

 

[pitabread]

Science describes quantum leaps when describing evolution. I need more details.

There are loads of details out there. You can find papers on everything from broad patterns of evolution right down to describing specific molecular changes for particular proteins.

That said, there isn't information on everything about everything. But there is certainly more information available on evolution than any single person could absorb in a lifetime.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That said, there isn't information on everything about everything. But there is certainly more information available on evolution than any single person could absorb in a lifetime.

But I need all the information in order to formulate the odds of evolution occurring/not occurring. For example, what are the odds of any single molecular change occurring, and, how many molecular changes are needed for the most minute evolutionary change? And what are the odds of the necessary chain of these changes occurring to make even a small change in an organism? And what is the mechanism for these changes in the first place?

And finally, are these changes random or by design?

 

[VirOptimus]

But I need all the information in order to formulate the odds of evolution occurring/not occurring. For example, what are the odds of any single molecular change occurring, and, how many molecular changes are needed for the most minute evolutionary change? And what are the odds of the necessary chain of these changes occurring to make even a small change in an organism? And what is the mechanism for these changes in the first place?

And finally, are these changes random or by design?

I dont think you understand probability.

Also, mathematical models for the evoultionary process would be incredibly complex, involving multidimensionel diferential calculus, do you have the math skills?