Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Dave L]

You are claiming that Arminians hate God.
Armininism is merely an opinion about election.
Which you appear to have completely lost sight of.

Arminianism and Calvinism represent two entirely different Christs and two entirely different Christianities. Just as Catholicism and Mormonism does.

 

[Dave L]

And with this sort of ridiculous hair-splitting you declare that I hate God?

You hate the Calvinist presentation of him.

 

[Saint Steven]

If the God presented by Calvinism is the bibical God, (and I believe it is), you hate him and prefer the Arminian version instead.

If? (indeed)
That is the truest thing you have written today.

 

[Saint Steven]

Arminianism and Calvinism represent two entirely different Christs and two entirely different Christianities. Just as Catholicism and Mormonism does.

But both Calvinists and Arminians are both evangelical protestants.
Many of them attend the same churches. Entirely different Christs? That's nuts.

 

[Dave L]

But both Calvinists and Arminians are both evangelical protestants.
Many of them attend the same churches. Entirely different Christs? That's nuts.

Two different Christs. Wheat and Tares.

 

[Saint Steven]

You hate the Calvinist presentation of him.

That's not entirely true. I said I believe in salvation by grace.
That is a nice downgrade from claiming I hate God though.
You seem to be back-peddling. Or the coffee is working.

 

[Dave L]

That's not entirely true. I said I believe in salvation by grace.
That is a nice downgrade from claiming I hate God though.
You seem to be back-peddling. Or the coffee is working.

You define grace differently to fit your legalistic gospel.

 

[Saint Steven]

Two different Christs. Wheat and Tares.

Wow. lol
(it's the devil) Seriously?

 

[Dave L]

Wow. lol
(it's the devil) Seriously?

Scripture says this is what is now happening.

 

[Saint Steven]

You define grace differently to fit your legalistic gospel.

My legalistic gospel?
You are the one that claims I hate God because I don't agree entirely with Calvinism.
My legalistic gospel? lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Scripture says this is what is now happening.

Over a doctrinal opinion? No way.

 

[Dave L]

Over a doctrinal opinion? No way.

The difference is in those who can discern Christ and those who cannot.

 

[Dave L]

My legalistic gospel?
You are the one that claims I hate God because I don't agree entirely with Calvinism.
My legalistic gospel? lol

You make salvation contingent on obedience. You must be saved before you can become obedient.

 

[Saint Steven]

The difference is in those who can discern Christ and those who cannot.

There you go using the word "discern" again. (spiritual gift)
Discernment does not come from agreement with a factional doctrinal opinion.
To claim that Arminians cannot discern Christ is ridiculous.

 

[Saint Steven]

You make salvation contingent on obedience. You must be saved before you can become obedient.

Obedience to what?

That means a lot coming from someone who claims we receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE we are saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.


I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.

I don’t know for sure if speaking in tongues or healing or prophesying has ceased but from what I see in the scriptures it appears to be automatically given to those who are chosen, not necessarily something they sought after. I don’t see anything that says we must try to speak in tongues or prophesy. Personally I have never experienced any of these gifts. I don’t believe they are necessary to possess the indwelling Holy Spirit. So I just love and honor God and if He deems that I am to receive these gifts then so be it. I don’t try to make it happen but I don’t deny it may be possible for some to possess these gifts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You make salvation contingent on obedience. You must be saved before you can become obedient.

In a sense a person is saved before becoming obedient because they are already written in the book of life, however a person who does not become obedient would not have been written in the book of life before creation. Our salvation is contingent on our obedience which was foreseen by God before creation. So we do control our destiny but it has already been foreseen by God. For example a person could be on the path to salvation but veer away from the path and if that person doesn’t repent they will not’ve been written in the book of life but had they either stayed on the path or repented and got back on the path they will have been written in the book of life. So eternal security is true depending on how you look at it. If your referring to people who are written in the book of life then yes their salvation is secure but if your referring to our walk in the Spirit then I would say it is possible to be on the path to salvation and lose it because of failing to abide in Christ.

 

[Dave L]

In a sense a person is saved before becoming obedient because they are already written in the book of life, however a person who does not become obedient would not have been written in the book of life before creation. Our salvation is contingent on our obedience which was foreseen by God before creation. So we do control our destiny but it has already been foreseen by God. For example a person could be on the path to salvation but veer away from the path and if that person doesn’t repent they will not’ve been written in the book of life but had they either stayed on the path or repented and got back on the path they will have been written in the book of life. So eternal security is true depending on how you look at it. If your referring to people who are written in the book of life then yes their salvation is secure but if your referring to our walk in the Spirit then I would say it is possible to be on the path to salvation and lose it because of failing to abide in Christ.

= salvation for the self-righteous only. God saves those he foresaw could not believe and turned them into believers through the new birth.

 

[Dave L]

Obedience to what?

That means a lot coming from someone who claims we receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE we are saved.

What is the hoop you jumped through to activate your salvation?

 

[Dave L]

There you go using the word "discern" again. (spiritual gift)
Discernment does not come from agreement with a factional doctrinal opinion.
To claim that Arminians cannot discern Christ is ridiculous.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15–17)