Confused

[Dorothy Mae]

I am not going to go blow for blow. Experience says it isnt worth it.

The list I produced is fair and objective of who believed what and when in early church
Indeed what John the apostle passed on.
And none of them thought it was just a symbol. All said real body/flesh.

So take just the first point you refer:

My comment "some are sick, some have died" - a reference to Paul and Corinthians demonstrates it is NOT just a symbol. How else could it be "profaned" (paul) or "valid if only performed by bishop" Ignatius.(disciple of John). None of that would make sense if it were just a symbol.

The symbolic only eucharist was unheard of before the reformation , and because "tradition" means "faith handed down" (paradosis) - the symbolic only eucharist is man made tradition post reformation.

Just to let you know, I think the appeal to someone who was taught by John as an authority shows a weak position. Judas was taught by Jesus himself and that didn’t insure he got the truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The answers are in that link. Too many to post! Many Biblical scriptures to support the Catholic mass as Biblical. Its very obvious from your post, my dear friend, that you do not know Catholicism and at the same time 'believe' in old school lies about Catholicism.

God bless you

I already said if the author of the link isn’t talking it pointless to try to discuss the topic with someone who is unable to put their own thoughts into words. Every answer will just be another link.

 

[ExTiff]

Pretty sure Jesus said that some worship in one way but the Father seeks those who worship in spirit and in truth. He does not seem to share you viewpoint nor thinks it mudane if all worshipped in spirit and truth according to Jesus.

I appreciate what you seem to be trying to say here but I don't think you can draw any analogy between 'worship that is in Spirit and Truth' with liturgical or non liturgical styles of worship, or even formal or informal expressions of public worship. I think Christ was referring to an attitude of heart and a way of life, rather than ritualistic preferences for style or place or of extemporary, enthusiastic verbal or musically vocal expressions of adoration or praise.

Our preferences with particular styles of 'worship' are merely 'preferences', presumably because that is what we like most, because it just 'feels right' to us. The factor in all that, that is key to whether it is worship which is 'in spirit and in truth', is neither style, content nor geographical location dependent. It is whether there is honesty and sincerity of heart in the worshipper.
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[Dorothy Mae]

I appreciate what you seem to be trying to say here but I don't think you can draw any analogy between 'worship that is in Spirit and Truth' with liturgical or non liturgical styles of worship, or even formal or informal expressions of public worship.

I grew up Lutheran and loved the part where we sang “we worship you.” When I went to a AoG, they claimed they had no literagy, but nevertheless had the same order every time. They had one, therefore, but called it something else.

I think Christ was referring to an attitude of heart and a way of life, rather than ritualistic preferences for style or place or of extemporary, enthusiastic verbal or musically vocal expressions of adoration or praise.

“ Worship in truth” means intellectually you know what God knows to be true, at least to some degree. Sincere plays no role at all if a person rejects the truth and accepts more appealing lies. Worship in truth means you have to know the truth.

Our preferences with particular styles of 'worship' are merely 'preferences', presumably because that is what we like most, because it just 'feels right' to us. The factor in all that, that is key to whether it is worship which is 'in spirit and in truth', is neither style, content nor geographical location dependent. It is whether there is honesty and sincerity of heart in the worshipper.
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No, certainly not. Jesus said there’d be those who sincerely believe that they are pleasing God by killing believers. Sincerity is highly overrated. Truth is what God looks for in worshippers, at least that’s what Jesus said.

 

[ExTiff]

I grew up Lutheran and loved the part where we sang “we worship you.” When I went to a AoG, they claimed they had no literagy, but nevertheless had the same order every time. They had one, therefore, but called it something else.
“ Worship in truth” means intellectually you know what God knows to be true, at least to some degree. Sincere plays no role at all if a person rejects the truth and accepts more appealing lies. Worship in truth means you have to know the truth.
No, certainly not. Jesus said there’d be those who sincerely believe that they are pleasing God by killing believers. Sincerity is highly overrated. Truth is what God looks for in worshippers, at least that’s what Jesus said.

No, certainly not. Jesus said there’d be those who sincerely believe that they are pleasing God by killing believers. Sincerity is highly overrated. Truth is what God looks for in worshippers, at least that’s what Jesus said.

What you say is certainly true. Being sincerely deluded would not qualify worship as being in truth. If one is in possession of the truth though, insincerity of worship would also disqualify it from being 'in spirit'. The Holy Spirit is the epitome of sincerity.
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[Dorothy Mae]

What you say is certainly true. Being sincerely deluded would not qualify a worship as being in truth. If one is in possession of the truth though, insincerity of worship would also disqualify it from being 'in spirit'. The Holy Spirit is the epitome of sincerity.
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No one who holds the truth as God knows to any degree beyond knowing He is there, would worship in insincerity. The knowledge of God requires a devotion of spirit not required of those who merely believe he is there. Spirit comes first. Truth requires more.

Those who are insincere aren’t given the truth.

 

[ExTiff]

No one who holds the truth as God knows to any degree beyond knowing He is there, would worship in insincerity. The knowledge of God requires a devotion of spirit not required of those who merely believe he is there. Spirit comes first. Truth requires more.

Those who are insincere aren’t given the truth.

Once again, true. We must seek God with sincerity or knowledge from God will be forever beyond our comprehension. Ps.25:14; Phil.1:10; 1 Pet.2:2; 1 Cor.5:8; Eph.6:24; Tit.2:7.

 

[Major1]

What do you observe besides people? Agreed.

Well he literally laid down his body and shed his blood. Not merely spiritual.

I like to watch my dog Daisey. She is one goofy dog who always makes us laugh.

Yes He did...…….ONE TIME and ONE TIME only!

Hebrews 10:10...…….
"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

However, I am not wanting to argue the point, but it is abundantly clear that Roman Catholics are quick to say that the Eucharist is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. They want to make it clear that Christ was offered once for all and that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice but a “re-presentation” of the sacrifice.

Again, I certainly do not want to misrepresent Roman Catholic theology, but we must ask how it is possible for the Mass to not be a re-sacrifice of Christ when the Mass is called a divine sacrifice (CCC, 1068) that is done over and over again.

We are told that “the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice”; (CCC, 1367); that it is an un-bloody offering that is propitiatory, (CCC, 1367); that it can make reparation of sins, (CCC, 1414); and is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: “Sacrifice of the Mass”).

Do then conclude that it is a sacrifice that occurs over and over again and since it is said to be a true and proper sacrifice that is propitiatory, then logically it must be a re-sacrifice of Christ. Please tell me if that is wrong.

If it is not, then how can it be called a sacrifice of Christ? Also, how could it be propitiatory if it is not a sacrifice of Christ since it is Christ’s offering on the cross that is itself propitiatory?

 

[Major1]

No one who holds the truth as God knows to any degree beyond knowing He is there, would worship in insincerity. The knowledge of God requires a devotion of spirit not required of those who merely believe he is there. Spirit comes first. Truth requires more.

Those who are insincere aren’t given the truth.

2 Thess. 2:10...……..
"and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

 

[Major1]

Once again, true. We must seek God with sincerity or knowledge from God will be forever beyond our comprehension. Ps.25:14; Phil.1:10; 1 Pet.2:2; 1 Cor.5:8; Eph.6:24; Tit.2:7.

And the TRUTH is the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:6...…..
"I AM the way the TRUTH and the life and no man comes to the Father except by me".

 

[Major1]

Been to mass plenty of times. Never saw incense offered up as prayers of those present.
But you missed the rest of the worship service before God in Revelation. Wrong. The bible says Jesus does. You mean we translated into something besides Latin (which was a translation from the Greek)
so people could read it? I follow Jesus and not very religious. You could say I obey the last recorded words of Mary if you like. What about them?We can read it anytime we like.

Just curious as to why you would follow the last words of Mary.

There are only 4 recorded passages of Mary in the Bible.

Hebrews 1:2 says...…….
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

As for the Maccabees, it includes doctrines which are not found in the Bible.

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45,
"2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Purgatory is NO WHERE to be found in the Bible! The Word is not there and the teaching is not there and there is no place anywhere where it is suggested in the Bible.

 

[ExTiff]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

I think you should remember that you are a gift to the church, 1 Cor.12:27-30 therefore a gift to whichever local church you decide to support. Also you are entitled to support from the church you decide to join, it should nurture your faith, not abuse your freedom in Christ to be who He wants you to be. Gal.4:21-26. The church below is a foretaste of the chuch above, which is our mother.

Not all local churches are fulfilling their purpose as 'mothers' and not all 'gifts' are fulfilling theirs as 'gifts'.

Any church you join will gain from your gifts. Whatever they may be is for you to discover within the context of the local church. Sometimes those gifts will become uncomfortable for the church you join, because part of your duty to Christ is to help purify the church by the contribution of yourself to it. You should gain support and nurture from the church, but sometimes it will fail you, because it is comprised of falible human beings, like yourself. We are all on a journey together following the one shepherd and discovering the path we should take, as we progress.

So you really do not choose which local church God wants you to be in and it does not really choose to have you as one of its 'members'. God will let you know where you should be and what you should be contributing by being there. Ask Him over a period of time expecting a definite reply and when you get it, don't argue with Him. James 1:5.
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[Dorothy Mae]

Just curious as to why you would follow the last words of Mary.

There are only 4 recorded passages of Mary in the Bible.

Hebrews 1:2 says...…….
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

As for the Maccabees, it includes doctrines which are not found in the Bible.

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45,
"2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Purgatory is NO WHERE to be found in the Bible! The Word is not there and the teaching is not there and there is no place anywhere where it is suggested in the Bible.

The last recorded words of Mary are, “whatever he (Jesus) says to you to do, do it.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I like to watch my dog Daisey. She is one goofy dog who always makes us laugh.

Yes He did...…….ONE TIME and ONE TIME only!

Hebrews 10:10...…….
"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

However, I am not wanting to argue the point, but it is abundantly clear that Roman Catholics are quick to say that the Eucharist is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. They want to make it clear that Christ was offered once for all and that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice but a “re-presentation” of the sacrifice.

Again, I certainly do not want to misrepresent Roman Catholic theology, but we must ask how it is possible for the Mass to not be a re-sacrifice of Christ when the Mass is called a divine sacrifice (CCC, 1068) that is done over and over again.

We are told that “the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice”; (CCC, 1367); that it is an un-bloody offering that is propitiatory, (CCC, 1367); that it can make reparation of sins, (CCC, 1414); and is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: “Sacrifice of the Mass”).

Do then conclude that it is a sacrifice that occurs over and over again and since it is said to be a true and proper sacrifice that is propitiatory, then logically it must be a re-sacrifice of Christ. Please tell me if that is wrong.

If it is not, then how can it be called a sacrifice of Christ? Also, how could it be propitiatory if it is not a sacrifice of Christ since it is Christ’s offering on the cross that is itself propitiatory?

Since I’m not Catholic, I agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Once again, true. We must seek God with sincerity or knowledge from God will be forever beyond our comprehension. Ps.25:14; Phil.1:10; 1 Pet.2:2; 1 Cor.5:8; Eph.6:24; Tit.2:7.

The human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Sincerity is known by being willing to abandon untruth when truth is presented. It is never judged by how often the person tells themselves they are sincere. Paul was sincere in his pursuit of Christians but gave it up when shown the truth. Some refuse to do so, the untruth being more appealing.

We must seek God with obedience not sincerity. I don’t see Jesus commending sincerity. I do read him saying that that Father will reveal himself to those who keep his teaching. Sincerity doesn’t seem to play a role.

 

[ExTiff]

The human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Sincerity is known by being willing to abandon untruth when truth is presented. It is never judged by how often the person tells themselves they are sincere. Paul was sincere in his pursuit of Christians but gave it up when shown the truth. Some refuse to do so, the untruth being more appealing.

We must seek God with obedience not sincerity. I don’t see Jesus commending sincerity. I do read him saying that that Father will reveal himself to those who keep his teaching. Sincerity doesn’t seem to play a role.

I don’t see Jesus commending sincerity. Sincerity doesn’t seem to play a role.

Jesus IS and was sincere. The Herodians and Pharisees were not. Even the insincere can recognize sincerity when they see it. Matt.22:16; Mark 12:14. Sincerity is something you either are or you are not. No ammount of 'telling yourself you are sincere' will ever change the fact that you aren't, if you aren't. And no ammount of being told you are insincere will negate your sincerity, if you are indeed sincere. It is either a personal attribute or a personal deficiency.

sincere: unfeigned; genuine; free from pretence; the same in reality as in appearance; truthful; pure [French sincere, from Latin sincerus clean].

Which of these attributes do you think we Christians can do without, considering Christ had them all?
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[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus IS and was sincere.

The Holy spirit and the Father are sincere too. Is this saying something anyone doubts? They don’t sin either. They don’t have desperately wicked hearts either.

The Herodians and Pharisees were not. Even the insincere can recognize sincerity when they see it. Matt.22:16; Mark 12:14.

Most people who claim they are sincere today are not. They just fool themselves and don’t know how to measure sincerely. They thinks it’s a warm feeling.

Sincerity is something you either are or you are not.

There are also degrees of such.

No ammount of 'telling yourself you are sincere' will ever change the fact that you aren't, if you aren't.

True, but people lie to themselves all the time.

And no ammount of being told you are insincere will negate your sincerity, if you are indeed sincere. It is either a personal attribute or a personal deficiency.

True but that’s besides the point.

sincere: unfeigned; genuine; free from pretence; the same in reality as in appearance; truthful; pure [French sincere, from Latin sincerus clean].

Which of these attributes do you think we Christians can do without, considering Christ had them all?.

This question makes no sense. Who is assuming this at all?

 

[ExTiff]

The Holy spirit and the Father are sincere too. Is this saying something anyone doubts? They don’t sin either. They don’t have desperately wicked hearts either.
Most people who claim they are sincere today are not. They just fool themselves and don’t know how to measure sincerely. They thinks it’s a warm feeling.
There are also degrees of such. True, but people lie to themselves all the time.
True but that’s besides the point. This question makes no sense. Who is assuming this at all?

This question makes no sense. Who is assuming this at all?

You seemed to be here:

We must seek God with obedience not sincerity. I don’t see Jesus commending sincerity. I do read him saying that that Father will reveal himself to those who keep his teaching. Sincerity doesn’t seem to play a role.

I had not at all suggested obedience is unnecessary. I was making the point that we are called upon by Apostolic authority to be sincere in our faith in God's promises and sincere in our worship.

"For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Cor.5:7-8.

You seemed to be implying that we are incapable of compliance with this Apostolic advice. Sincerity is indeed required of believers, otherwise this advice would be unnecessary.

Paul equates insincerity with wickedness among believers, particularly sexual immorality.
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[Dorothy Mae]

You seemed to be here:


I had not at all suggested obedience is unnecessary.

Obedience is vital.

I was making the point that we are called upon by Apostolic authority to be sincere in our faith in God's promises and sincere in our worship.

Where is that in the Bible??

"For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Cor.5:7-8.

So keep the feast with sincerity and truth. Nothing about what you claim.

You seemed to be implying that we are incapable of compliance with this Apostolic advice.

Where did I say that? I said people have wicked hearts. You disagree? People lie to themselves. You think they don’t?

Sincerity is indeed required of believers, otherwise this advice would be unnecessary.

Obedience is required. Sincerity is cheap. Harder to fake obedience to God.

Paul equates insincerity with wickedness among believers, particularly sexual immorality.
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Jesus equates those who did nothing with going to hell. Btw, Everyone claim to be sincere. No one says they’re insincere.

 

[Major1]

Jesus IS and was sincere. The Herodians and Pharisees were not. Even the insincere can recognize sincerity when they see it. Matt.22:16; Mark 12:14. Sincerity is something you either are or you are not. No ammount of 'telling yourself you are sincere' will ever change the fact that you aren't, if you aren't. And no ammount of being told you are insincere will negate your sincerity, if you are indeed sincere. It is either a personal attribute or a personal deficiency.

sincere: unfeigned; genuine; free from pretence; the same in reality as in appearance; truthful; pure [French sincere, from Latin sincerus clean].

Which of these attributes do you think we Christians can do without, considering Christ had them all?
.

However....."Sincerity" does not save anyone.

All over the world we hear it said...…..
“It does not matter if you believe in Jesus, Buddha, or Mohammed, as long as your belief is sincere. What more could God want than a sincere heart?”

Indeed, the annoyed objector may even point to the fact that adherents of other religions are oftentimes more sincere than the very Christians who criticize their sincerity.

We do not choose our doctors, our babysitters, or our accountants on the basis of their sincerity because we know that sincerity is not enough. In the same way, sincerity is not sufficient for salvation. All religions make general claims about reality and particular claims about salvation. Our primary concern should be the truth or falsity of those claims. God either exists or he doesn’t, we are either born again or we are not, but the sincerity of our beliefs does nothing to change the fact of the matter.

A person can be the most sincere and loving and friendly person in Alabama, but if they do not accept Jesus as the Christ they are lost on hell bound.