Child sacrifice in America dealt with by heaven

[dad]

This doesn't actually mean anything; you're just avoiding the question.


I'm afraid not. That's just your unsubstantiated opinion. What we know is that God intervened in someone's life, and it didn't violate their free will.
And, of course, why would it? If someone comes up to you and tells you to do something, don't you have the free will to choose not to? Even if it's a giant head in the sky, you could just say no.
So, again, why does God not act to stop abortions if he doesn't like them?


Funnily enough, that's the very thing we've been discussing in this thread, in which it has been categorically proven that the Bible does not have anything against abortion - and that, in fact, the Bible even tells you to have abortions under certain circumstances.


No, she pointed out the logical flaw in your argument, and I think she was right. Unless you can disprove her?

She avoided the issue of how man with no or limited free will would be neutered and robot like, and asked if God was like that. Your claim about the bible not respecting babies as people is ridiculous.

Is there free will in heaven?

Why wouldn't there be?

 

[dad]

Yet it seems to work for a custom title. .

The title undefeated refers to the creation evolution debate. But in this case I guess it applies also.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

She avoided the issue of how man with no or limited free will would be neutered and robot like, and asked if God was like that.

You said that a person without the ability to choose evil would be "like a neutered cat". She pointed out that God cannot choose to do evil, and asked if that made him like a neutered cat. And then you said she obviously wasn't being serious.

Your claim about the bible not respecting babies as people is ridiculous.

Sorry; only in your eyes.
The bible has not a single verse condemning abortion. This is strange, because they certainly knew about it. You tried to produce a large amount of verses, but all of yours were about children and babies. When I pointed this out, you said you would never trust scientists to tell you what a fetus could or could not do, because they were evil.
Also, the Bible actively shows that God doesn't care if a fetus is aborted, because he actively recommends angry husbands to get their wives an abortion via the ceremony of Numbers 5. You've tried to spin that a number of times, but have never been able to get "Make her drink the cursed water, and then she will miscarry if she is guilty" anything other than what it sounds like - an abortion.

Why wouldn't there be?

Ah. So there is free will in heaven. In that case, that means that anyone can sin or do evil if they wish to? There's nothing stopping people from doing evil in heaven?

The title undefeated refers to the creation evolution debate. But in this case I guess it applies also.

You guess wrong. And the creation-evolution debate was won many years ago, by the evolution side.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God not violating our free will does not mean He condones all our choices.

This response has absolutely nothing to do with what you’re responding to.

The point is that either a) the god you believe in didn’t have the power to create all humans with the free will ability to choose to molest a child but without any proclivity to do so (like myself), or b) your god desires the existence of child molesters more than not.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Todd has a good point. If I understand his broader point, I think he is saying that it is no violation of free will to create a person who can do evil if he wishes, but simply does not wish to, does not find the thought of harming others to be attractive?

 

[Belk]

Yes.

Thank you. Does God demand that we be willing to do things he finds abhorrent?

 

[Strathos]

I'm pretty sure that the point of the sacrifice of Isaac was to show how Yahweh was unlike all of the other gods of the time and region who would demand human sacrifice, but His followers were still devout enough to obey such a command anyway.

 

[Rajni]

God has no free will?

Are you saying God has no free will, or are you asking me
if I think that (in the latter case, I do believe God has free
will)?

She avoided the issue of how man with no or limited free will would be neutered and robot like, and asked if God was like that.

No, she is zooming in on the issue, all up close n' personal-like,
trying to nail down how you can conclude that a human with
the same ability as God to consistently make the right decisions
would be a robot while that same ability in God’s case doesn’t
make Him a robot.

The title undefeated refers to the creation evolution debate. But in this case I guess it applies also.

If you say so.

 

[dad]

You said that a person without the ability to choose evil would be "like a neutered cat". She pointed out that God cannot choose to do evil, and asked if that made him like a neutered cat. And then you said she obviously wasn't being serious.

Who made that rule? God cannot choose? He chooses people. He chooses a lot of things. He chooses what He wants! He IS good, so evil really is a bit like something created for contrast for us to see. If we created something that does not mean we are unable to choose to use it a certain way. If you create a fork, does that mean you are unable to choose to poke yourself in the eye with it? No. It just means you also have some wisdom.

Sorry; only in your eyes.
The bible has not a single verse condemning abortion.

ALL verses, that condemn murder and child sacrifice condemn abortion.

This is strange, because they certainly knew about it. You tried to produce a large amount of verses, but all of yours were about children and babies. When I pointed this out, you said you would never trust scientists to tell you what a fetus could or could not do, because they were evil.

Not just because they are 'evil' but because they don't know which way is up and down! They have no clue what a spirit is, what life is all about and etc etc. You might as well ask a rock.

Also, the Bible actively shows that God doesn't care if a fetus is aborted, because he actively recommends angry husbands to get their wives an abortion via the ceremony of Numbers 5.

No one ever got murdered or killed there. That test never resulted in a baby dying.

Reminds me of a medical statement issued by a large group of professionals recently. They say no mother ever dies because of not aborting a baby. They suggest that an attempt to save the baby can be made (even if unsuccessful in some cases). The difference is that abortion/child sacrifice procedures are designed to kill the baby rather than try to save it!!!!!!!!

Abortion is never medically necessary

Ah. So there is free will in heaven. In that case, that means that anyone can sin or do evil if they wish to? There's nothing stopping people from doing evil in heaven?

Having been made perfect in heaven, and having a clean heart means that we are no longer under sin. Death and sin will be no more there. We would probably no more want to steal and hurt our neighbor there than we would want to lock ourselves in a golden closet rather than fly around the beautiful world and universe with gorgeous gals and amazing friends.

You guess wrong. And the creation-evolution debate was won many years ago, by the evolution side.

Maybe stick to something you know a little about.

 

[dad]

The point is that either a) the god you believe in didn’t have the power to create all humans with the free will ability to choose to molest a child but without any proclivity to do so (like myself), or b) your god desires the existence of child molesters more than not.

Imagine a train is heading for a broken bridge over a deep ravine with a raging cold river below, and you are a passenger. Imagine you only have minutes left because the engineer doesn't know, and nothing could be done to stop it. Imagine some pervert is ogling some child a few cars back from where you sit. Now in your car there is a woman freaking out because she got a text on her phone that the bridge was out only 700 meters from where you were now. You are a Christian, and the woman is unsaved. You want to calm her down and try to have her ask Jesus for salvation in the little time remaining. Are you guilty for not running down the train and shooting the pervert?

 

[dad]

Thank you. Does God demand that we be willing to do things he finds abhorrent?

Not usually. Jeremiah was asked to spread dung on himself, though, for example. It turned out to be for a good cause. In Abraham's case, that is the famous picture of how Jesus would come one day to die for us, the Lamb of God. That was the idea behind that show.

 

[dad]

Are you saying God has no free will, or are you asking me
if I think that (in the latter case, I do believe God has free
will)?

He does whatever He pleases. That is the epitome of free will!

No, she is zooming in on the issue, all up close n' personal-like,
trying to nail down how you can conclude that a human with
the same ability as God to consistently make the right decisions
would be a robot while that same ability in God’s case doesn’t
make Him a robot.


If you say so.

Hate to humble you down, but humans do not have the same abilities as God Almighty!

Also, man is living under sin right now. God is not.

 

[Belk]

Not usually. Jeremiah was asked to spread dung on himself, though, for example. It turned out to be for a good cause. In Abraham's case, that is the famous picture of how Jesus would come one day to die for us, the Lamb of God. That was the idea behind that show.

So God will request his followers to perform actions that are sins?

 

[Rajni]

He does whatever He pleases. That is the epitome of free will!

Then we are in agreement there.

Hate to humble you down, but humans do not have the same abilities as God Almighty! Also, man is living under sin right now. God is not.

Please dispense with the dodging and answer the question:

If God can be perfect and have free will without being a robot,
how can a human who is not under sin not be perfect while
still having free will?

 

[pc_76]

Having been made perfect in heaven, and having a clean heart means that we are no longer under sin. Death and sin will be no more there. We would probably no more want to steal and hurt our neighbor there than we would want to lock ourselves in a golden closet rather than fly around the beautiful world and universe with gorgeous gals and amazing friends.

I'll unashamedly call this a paradox of perfection. All of us (man on earth) have our own unique ideas about what a perfect world or society is and have our own discretion of what sin or evil is that is more-or-less in line with what God himself had to have decided as his own idea of perfection (in a mutually inclusive manner regarding the design of Heaven).

About abortion (or evil in general), my view is that God has created us and doesn't intervene in our free will even if he doesn't condone our choices of evil. By his design he still allowed sin and evil to function in the world, so technically abortion and all sin is not evil according to him (even though I certainly believe abortion is immoral in most general cases).

I believe the law of nature has tricked us sometimes and I can admit believing that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have been thinking lately about how God might be working in America primarily due to the abortion issue there. Almost a feeling that God is fed up with a nation that has proclaimed faith in Him in many ways, that is plunging deeply into murdering children. I have the feeling that He is about to act.

I read an article linking ancient child sacrifice to abortions. Here is a quote from it

"...Tertullian, for example, commenting on the Roman practice of infanticide by comparing it to the Carthaginian practice of child sacrifice, admonishes:

there is no difference as to baby killing whether you do it as a sacred rite or just because you choose to do it.

In the same context Tertullian describes the Christian attitude towards both abortion and infanticide saying:

For us murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother's blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.[30]

The most obvious parallel between the rite of child sacrifice and the practice of abortion is the sober fact that the parents actually kill their own offspring. There are however many other parallels. At Carthage the main reason for sacrificing a child was to avert potential dangers in a crisis or to gain success through fulfilling a vow. Today many times when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, abortion seems to be the only way to resolve the crisis she finds herself in. The potential danger to reputation, education, career, etc., become overwhelming. To avert the seemingly terrifying consequences of carrying a pregnancy to term, the woman may turn to abortion as a means of escape. Another woman may experience much less of the anxiety and fear that accompany a crisis. She may simply see the pregnancy as an intrusion into her self-serving lifestyle and an obstacle in the way of the road to her success. Sadly this woman's offspring must be sacrificed so that she can continue uninterrupted with her plans for the future.[30b]"

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice



Here is my suggestion for America...and eventually, the world.

'Repent, or perish'

Literally.
.

Most unfortunately I would not call America Christian. Christians are in short supply in America these days.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Numbers, Chapter 5. If a man is jealous of his pregnant wife, or thinks that she has been unfaithful to him, she is to be tested; and if she fails to pass the test, the fetus will be aborted:
Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5 - New International Version
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed]">[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memoriale offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

This is very clear - if the woman has been unfaithful, the consequences of this ritual are that her fetus will be killed.

Now that it has been shown that God has no objection to killing an unborn child, could you please provide me with a passage from the Bible in which it says that you should never perform an abortion. Not "thou shalt not kill" (as Numbers 5 shows that God supports killing an unborn fetus), but a clear quote showing that an abortion itself - the act of aborting an unborn child deliberately - is wrong.

That’s just another inaccurate translation from the NIV. The correct term is her thigh will rot or waste away. The word miscarry is nowhere in the Hebrew text.

 

[dad]

So God will request his followers to perform actions that are sins?

Sin is disobeying, not obeying.

 

[dad]

Then we are in agreement there.


Please dispense with the dodging and answer the question:

If God can be perfect and have free will without being a robot,
how can a human who is not under sin not be perfect while
still having free will?

Easy. It is not the ability to choose that makes us do evil. What makes man wicked is that he is in sin. God could do some of the same things and it would not be evil, because He would be doing the same things for good.

 

[dad]

Most unfortunately I would not call America Christian. Christians are in short supply in America these days.

I guess the churches on every corner don't count?