Are Bad Catholics Still Catholics? (Jimmy Akin article)

[worshipjunkie]

There's a few incensed Trad Catholics but I don't see any of them as canon lawyers.

On the other hand, it does seem many moderate Catholics realize this is not a good hill to die on.

I'm a former Catholic. Abortion is an excommunicable offense for anyone who directly causes an abortion (the mother, potentially the father, the doctors, the nurses involved). The question at the time is does proposing and voting for pro abortion laws count as direct participation. I would say yes, because through your direct action, abortions are now able to take place that weren't before.

There is also the grounds (and to my mind, probably the easier ground) that pro-abortion politicians can be refused Communion because public heresy is an excommunicable offense and a grave scandal.
I personally don't get it. When I stopped believing what the Catholic Church believes, I left. I don't get why these liberals want to stay Catholic. Go start their own religion. Go be some other liberal liturgical denomination. Why do they have to bring scandal and shame to faithful Catholics?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm a former Catholic. Abortion is an excommunicable offense for anyone who directly causes an abortion (the mother, potentially the father, the doctors, the nurses involved). The question at the time is does proposing and voting for pro abortion laws count as direct participation. I would say yes, because through your direct action, abortions are now able to take place that weren't before.

There is also the grounds (and to my mind, probably the easier ground) that pro-abortion politicians can be refused Communion because public heresy is an excommunicable offense and a grave scandal.
I personally don't get it. When I stopped believing what the Catholic Church believes, I left. I don't get why these liberals want to stay Catholic. Go start their own religion. Go be some other liberal liturgical denomination. Why do they have to bring scandal and shame to faithful Catholics?

Voting for something is still considered 'indirect' and while it may be quite immoral to indirectly support abortion it does not come under the canon law position of 'direct' participation. The law is just not written that way. Perhaps it should have been, closing a loophole that allows immoral politicians to pretend to be good Catholics when their souls are in grave peril.

Immorality and heresy are different things, so a prosecution under canon law for heresy would be an uphill battle. For example, Mario Cuomo, father of the current governor of New York, said he was 'personally opposed' so he wouldn't have been heretical even if his vote on the subject would have been gravely immoral. Nancy Pelosi teaches heresy, but for the most part the rest of them are only practicing immorality. So the canon on heresy does not apply to them.

The grounds is promoting bad morality. I think that is canon 1369 but I might have the number wrong.

They are already subject to canon 915, where if a bishop has the gonads for it such a politician can be subject to other censures short of excommunication. Gov. Cuomo is already subject to that on another matter and is barred from communion. Of course he doesn't seem to care. He might like it if they excommunicated him, as a badge of courage on his part.

Why these fellows do not leave is perplexing. They should leave. They should be excluded by their bishops. We are all too tolerant of the intolerable. And all that does is makes more intolerable things appear to be tolerable as well. You had the good sense to leave for disagreeing with Catholic teaching. You might have the good sense to come back when you figure out you were wrong. But these folks stay to thumb their noses at the Church, being subversive Modernists and Alinskyites trying to kill the Church from within. It's a cowardly way.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm a former Catholic. Abortion is an excommunicable offense for anyone who directly causes an abortion (the mother, potentially the father, the doctors, the nurses involved). The question at the time is does proposing and voting for pro abortion laws count as direct participation. I would say yes, because through your direct action, abortions are now able to take place that weren't before.

There is also the grounds (and to my mind, probably the easier ground) that pro-abortion politicians can be refused Communion because public heresy is an excommunicable offense and a grave scandal.
I personally don't get it. When I stopped believing what the Catholic Church believes, I left. I don't get why these liberals want to stay Catholic. Go start their own religion. Go be some other liberal liturgical denomination. Why do they have to bring scandal and shame to faithful Catholics?

Abortions happen even when they are not legal. There were many abortions prior to Roe vs. Wade, for instance.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm a former Catholic. Abortion is an excommunicable offense for anyone who directly causes an abortion (the mother, potentially the father, the doctors, the nurses involved). The question at the time is does proposing and voting for pro abortion laws count as direct participation. I would say yes, because through your direct action, abortions are now able to take place that weren't before.

There is also the grounds (and to my mind, probably the easier ground) that pro-abortion politicians can be refused Communion because public heresy is an excommunicable offense and a grave scandal.
I personally don't get it. When I stopped believing what the Catholic Church believes, I left. I don't get why these liberals want to stay Catholic. Go start their own religion. Go be some other liberal liturgical denomination. Why do they have to bring scandal and shame to faithful Catholics?

I would imagine for most Catholics in New York, Cuomo's position on abortion doesn't necessarily cause the same degree of scandal and shame as is exhibited on this forum. Most Catholics in the northeast are fairly liberal, as are Christians in general there.

 

[tz620q]

Jimmy Akin addresses all of issues from a Catholic apologist perspective here is some of what he said in his titled piece "Are Bad Catholics Still Catholics?"
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So Jimmy is making a distinction here citing Vatican II between a 'bodily' manner and "in his heart' manner.​

Considering in the history of the church (and as many Catholics argue here vigorously the church does not change her doctrines) we have this:​

​

"The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that..not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” — Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (Seventeenth Ecumenical Council), Cantate Domino, Bull​

Jimmy vs, Pope Eugene. Who is right here? ​

Jimmy Akin did not quote from Cantate Domino. So you are posing a false contradiction. If you want to discuss this further, you will first have to show why you think Jimmy Akin is in contradiction to Cantate Domino and don't start with "It is so obvious.". Frankly, I find that Protestants that take Catholic documents and try to prove a change in doctrine from them are usually ex-Catholics that are trying to justify their actions. I would rather not wade through a sea of emotion in a discussion. So if you are honestly wanting to learn about Cantate Domino and what it meant at that time, instead of trying to read meaning into it 600 years after the fact, I think we could have a good discussion that is pertinent to the topic of Cuomo and what Jimmy Akin was getting at in his article.

 

[redleghunter]

Jimmy Akin did not quote from Cantate Domino.

That's the point. There are other Catholic teachings and history to consider which he did not.

So you are posing a false contradiction.

If you see a contradiction, then it is not proposed by me.

If you want to discuss this further, you will first have to show why you think Jimmy Akin is in contradiction to Cantate Domino and don't start with "It is so obvious.".

The piece is about church discipline in light of Cuomo signing a bill into law which amounts to infanticide.

It's interesting. You are the only Catholic to try to change this into a Catholic vs. Protestant thread.

 

[concretecamper]

It's interesting. You are the only Catholic to try to change this into a Catholic vs. Protestant thread

Actually, I was going to comment on how this turned into an anti Catholic thread a few pages back but I didnt. I guess I'm sort of used to the same old characters beating the same old drum.

 

[redleghunter]

Abortions happen even when they are not legal. There were many abortions prior to Roe vs. Wade, for instance.

What's your point?

 

[redleghunter]

Actually, I was going to comment on how this turned into an anti Catholic thread a few pages back but I didnt. I guess I'm sort of used to the same old characters beating the same old drum.

I believe I set up the OP to show that what Akin speaks of is not a "Catholic only" issue. The evil of abortion permeates every church and denomination.

 

[concretecamper]

I believe I set up the OP to show that what Akin speaks of is not a "Catholic only" issue. The evil of abortion permeates every church and denomination.

I didn't comment on your OP. I said "how this turned". Quite different than what you read.

 

[tz620q]

That's the point. There are other Catholic teachings and history to consider which he did not.

If you see a contradiction, then it is not proposed by me.

The piece is about church discipline in light of Cuomo signing a bill into law which amounts to infanticide.

It's interesting. You are the only Catholic to try to change this into a Catholic vs. Protestant thread.

Am I? You had several posts with James Murphy making this point that the Church has changed it's doctrine on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Your OP posited "Jimmy vs, Pope Eugene. Who is right here? "
That is stating a contradiction that if Pope Eugene and Cantate Domino is right then Jimmy Akin is wrong. To say that Jimmy Akin should have covered Cantate Domino in his article is saying that the contradiction is so evident that it must be covered in any thorough conversation on Cuomo and his status in the Catholic Church.

All of this is predicated on your belief in what the document says and does not really consider the intent of the document. Frankly, I found Jimmy Akin's article to be short and to the point about what current canon law and conciliar documents say. I doubt if it was his intent to go through history and pick out all possible counter arguments and refute them.

 

[tz620q]

I believe I set up the OP to show that what Akin speaks of is not a "Catholic only" issue. The evil of abortion permeates every church and denomination.

OK, I agree with you on this and maybe I should have never brought up the use of Cantate Domino in your OP. It just seemed like a back-handed slap at Catholicism that was not pertinent to the article you quoted.

 

[tz620q]

Abortions happen even when they are not legal. There were many abortions prior to Roe vs. Wade, for instance.

That would make a good topic for research. Actually several states had legalized abortion prior to Roe vs. Wade, which just tried to set a federal standard for the emerging state laws. Considering that the first year after Roe vs. Wade there were over 700,000 legal abortions in the U.S. and that 4 years later that number had almost doubled, what number would you consider many? Would half be enough or 350,000 abortions? It is a tough subject to get firm numbers on since there were both legal and illegal abortions at that time. But is it really a numbers game? Does the rise in murders justify a limited exception to make certain murders legal? That is why both sides in this debate will talk past each other; because they start with differing fundamental value systems to justify their position.

Now after saying this, it was actually numbers quoted from a Catholic report in the 1970's (I was not Catholic at the time and this helped open my eyes to some of their truths.) that changed my opinion. After reading about 1.2 million abortions in a year, the pro-choice argument for justification by incest, rape, and danger to the health of women evaporated.

 

[redleghunter]

OK, I agree with you on this and maybe I should have never brought up the use of Cantate Domino in your OP. It just seemed like a back-handed slap at Catholicism that was not pertinent to the article you quoted.

I wanted to offer something that would drive the conversation as Cantate Domino is a historical church teaching.

 

[redleghunter]

I didn't comment on your OP. I said "how this turned". Quite different than what you read.

Yes I caught the distinction, I guess I was pointing out the OP should not have 'welcomed' such comments towards Catholics.

 

[concretecamper]

I guess I was pointing out the OP should not have 'welcomed' such comments towards Catholics.

The original post didnt, but you went there anyway.

 

[tz620q]

I wanted to offer something that would drive the conversation as Cantate Domino is a historical church teaching.

Sorry if I overreacted. It does bring up an interesting perspective in that Cantate Domino was addressed against Pagans, Jews, Heretics, and Schismatics, though historically it was all about mending the East-West Schism. So we know that Cuomo is Catholic and not Jewish or pagan. That leaves us with heretic or schismatic. Since he is not trying to split the Catholic Church, at least formally, I would say heretic. There is always the hope that heretics can be convinced against their heresy. I wonder how much of this distancing of themselves from Catholic values is a political maneuver to prevent the sort of questions that Al Smith, John Kennedy, and some of our recent judicial candidates have had to endure.

 

[redleghunter]

Sorry if I overreacted. It does bring up an interesting perspective in that Cantate Domino was addressed against Pagans, Jews, Heretics, and Schismatics, though historically it was all about mending the East-West Schism. So we know that Cuomo is Catholic and not Jewish or pagan. That leaves us with heretic or schismatic. Since he is not trying to split the Catholic Church, at least formally, I would say heretic. There is always the hope that heretics can be convinced against their heresy. I wonder how much of this distancing of themselves from Catholic values is a political maneuver to prevent the sort of questions that Al Smith, John Kennedy, and some of our recent judicial candidates have had to endure.

Good analysis. Thank you. The type of comments/conversation I was hoping for.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So you admit the Catholic Church HAS, in fact, changed it's teaching?

There are teachings and there are teachings. Doctrines are more than just teachings. Doctrines never change, though they do get more deeply understood. So when we read the proclamation that "Without the Church there is no salvation" uttered by the pope, what does it mean? Do you even realize that it came from St. Cyprian in the 3rd Century? Well, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.". So we have come to a deeper meaning of what is meant by 'the Church'.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Now, if you were to go over to Catholic Answers Forum and say that the Catholic Church has changed it's teaching, you'd set off a crapstorm of epic proportions and would probably be banned.

Big difference between changing a teaching and changing a doctrine. We haven't changed doctrine.