Are Bad Catholics Still Catholics? (Jimmy Akin article)

[Concord1968]

So fine - Akin is ok with saying Cuomo is Catholic in name only -- but not in spirit.

But what about a "Catholic catholic" like Pope Francis?

When NY joins the other 7 states in "abortion at any age" devaluation of human life - at what point does Francis focus more on the killing of babies rather than opening doors for acceptance of the LGBT redefinition of marriage and open borders into a country that has lalready declared war on terrorism in the middle east?

I wouldn't call Pope Frankie a "Catholic Catholic". A "heretical Catholic" is more like it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And what do you expect his priest or his bishop to do?

Excommunicate him, for the sake of his imperiled immortal soul, to try to bring him back to his lost senses. Not to do so, while smiling and being buddy-buddy with him is a terrible thing, allowing him to be damned while presuming to be his friend.

One either hates the sin and loves the sinner OR loves the sin and hates the sinner.

 

[redleghunter]

Roman Catechism

Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

and

Canon 1398 reads, “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.” The term latae sententiae is equivalent to “automatic”—as opposed to ferendae sententiae, meaning “imposed by competent authority.”

The canon refers to the person who had the abortion and those who directly assisted in it. That would probably include any third party who knowingly financed it.

Therefore, Cuomo is no longer Catholic.

Thanks for the summary Camp. So you disagree with Akin’s assessment?

 

[redleghunter]

Fox News interviewed the Bishop in Albany

 

[FireDragon76]

There have been pro-choice Catholics before Cuomo. All Cuomo is doing is fulfilling his vocation as the executive of a secular state.

Vicomte raises a good point from a purely pragmatic perspective. Using excommunication as a method of politics has a poor track record in western culture. If Cuomo were excommunicated, it would just send a message that the Catholic Church is yet another authoritarian institution that doesn't care about individual conscience or the rights of citizens of secular states to form their own opinions. It would be decidedly medievalist and inappropriate.

 

[FireDragon76]

Obviously.
All old churches do. Have to.
Exhibit A: All of the old Western Churches (Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans) justified killing people as "witches". None justify that anymore, or even dare to try.

Some pretend that "nothing has changed", but that's just a lie.

Another good example is that we don't excommunicate bankers, but at one time loaning money at interest was considered mortally sinful. Calvin was the first Christian to propose that loaning money at interest was acceptable, but Luther was opposed to it (he favored something more like a credit union).

 

[archer75]

So how would your church handle a situation where a public figure who is a member of your church publicly supports sin?

I think all churches have members who suppport sin. But sometimes it is considered okay to look the other way.

 

[Cis.jd]

So how would your church handle a situation where a public figure who is a member of your church publicly supports sin?

I think the church should handle long overdue issues involving child molestation before dealing with this guy. It's kinda ironic for the church to shun him due to his support of sin yet support a sin of pedophilia by keeping all hush about specific priests who should be in jail.

 

[GingerBeer]

One either hates the sin and loves the sinner OR loves the sin and hates the sinner.

It seems that all have sinned and all fall short of the goodness to which God calls them so I wonder what place the aphorism in your post has in Christian faith.

 

[redleghunter]

Another good example is that we don't excommunicate bankers, but at one time loaning money at interest was considered mortally sinful. Calvin was the first Christian to propose that loaning money at interest was acceptable, but Luther was opposed to it (he favored something more like a credit union).

Why bother having a Catechism and canon law if the church is going to selectively enforce offenses.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not an expert on Canon law but if Cuomo and other Catholic politicians who advocate and support evil laws in favour of abortion what is the Catholic Church doing to make it clear that these politicians are contradicting the Church to which they ostensibly belong to and believe?

Can they be barred from communion? Has the Church offered an official condemnation? I would like to see some of that old take-no-nonsense Popery. Don't cave into secularism or admit that the moral beliefs of the Catholic Church have no place in the public.

At the very least it cannot be argued that pro-abortion Catholic politicians are acting in discordance with their publicly professed faith and are essentially self condemned. In saying they don't govern as Catholics it makes me wonder if they even live try to live as Catholics. They would probably be better suited in the Episcopalian Church.

 

[redleghunter]

Not an expert on Canon law but if Cuomo and other Catholic politicians who advocate and support evil laws in favour of abortion what is the Catholic Church doing to make it clear that these politicians are contradicting the Church to which they ostensibly belong to and believe?

Can they be barred from communion? Has the Church offered an official condemnation? I would like to see some of that old take-no-nonsense Popery. Don't cave into secularism or admit that the moral beliefs of the Catholic Church have no place in the public.

At the very least it cannot be argued that pro-abortion Catholic politicians are acting in discordance with their publicly professed faith and are essentially self condemned. In saying they don't govern as Catholics it makes me wonder if they even live try to live as Catholics. They would probably be better suited in the Episcopalian Church.

Video at link here:

Are Bad Catholics Still Catholics? (Jimmy Akin article)

The bishop mentions at the end that the removal of Communion is probably the first step.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why bother having a Catechism and canon law if the church is going to selectively enforce offenses.

Cuomo is not violating canon law.

 

[redleghunter]

Cuomo is not violating canon law.

Oh there are quite a few Catholics here who disagree with you.

 

[FireDragon76]

Oh there are quite a few Catholics here who disagree with you.

There's a few incensed Trad Catholics but I don't see any of them as canon lawyers.

On the other hand, it does seem many moderate Catholics realize this is not a good hill to die on.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There have been pro-choice Catholics before Cuomo. All Cuomo is doing is fulfilling his vocation as the executive of a secular state.

Vicomte raises a good point from a purely pragmatic perspective. Using excommunication as a method of politics has a poor track record in western culture. If Cuomo were excommunicated, it would just send a message that the Catholic Church is yet another authoritarian institution that doesn't care about individual conscience or the rights of citizens of secular states to form their own opinions. It would be decidedly medievalist and inappropriate.

Doing nothing renders the Church an impotent institution with no moral position on anything. I suppose requiring any standard of morality for some would constitute authoritarianism for those with libertine tendencies but for the Church historically actions good and bad have been subject to judgement from the ecclesiastical authorities. Paul did it and every generation since has done it to one degree or another. The Church is not neutral on moral issues.

On a matter as grave as abortion it is absolutely appropriate to punish and make clear the Catholic position. If you're pro-abortion you would disagree of course.

 

[redleghunter]

There's a few incensed Trad Catholics but I don't see any of them as canon lawyers.

On the other hand, it does seem many moderate Catholics realize this is not a good hill to die on.

Did you see the video I posted of the Bishop from Albany? He’s not Cuomo’s bishop but recommended he be refused communion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fr. Dwight Longenecker, who is hardly a liberal, on why excommunicating Cuomo is inappropriate:

https://dwightlongenecker.com/cuomo-excommunication-is-that-the-answer/

 

[FireDragon76]

Did you see the video I posted of the Bishop from Albany? He’s not Cuomo’s bishop but recommended he be refused communion.

If Cuomo were to be denied communion for this reason, it would be in error, as it is not objectively sinful to be a politician and be pro-choice, as even Fr. Longenecker notes. It may be offensive, it may be an issue of pastoral concern, but it's not something that the Church has the authority under canon law to excommunicate anybody over. Merely doing something distasteful or offensive is not proper grounds for excommunication.

 

[redleghunter]

Doing nothing renders the Church an impotent institution with no moral position on anything. I suppose requiring any standard of morality for some would constitute authoritarianism for those with libertine tendencies but for the Church historically actions good and bad have been subject to judgement from the ecclesiastical authorities. Paul did it and every generation since has done it to one degree or another. The Church is not neutral on moral issues.

On a matter as grave as abortion it is absolutely appropriate to punish and make clear the Catholic position. If you're pro-abortion you would disagree of course.

What you said and Jesus said:

Matthew 18: NASB

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO ORTHREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. (NASB)