Random Thoughts on Free Will and Butterfly Effect

[Danayah]

I keep thinking along these lines...

What is the impact of our free will? Does God know everything that will happen or just the general outline? With every decision made don't we change the result? (I might have been involved in this kinda thinking for too long).

I feel as if God makes somethings up as he goes. Like with the Hebrews I feel like he did everything to prevent them from cheating... He tried loving them out of it.. He tried punishment. Set out all the rules he saw as necessary to ensure their purity... But Jesus came bringing clarity because we still didn't get the point.

Calling to mind Ezekiel's task, to eat bread baked with human dung... How he protested... And God reduced it for his sake to Cow dung. These things I find amazing. God shows great emotion. I also keep wondering about the image we possess, maybe it isn't only physical...

Now these thoughts I know Christians arent generally open to. Not that God isn't Truly Almighty! Dont get me wrong! I'm just thinking that we truly have free will and it creates some interesting variables.
I imagine God changing certain things to touch our hearts a certain way, but I dont think this always works. Maybe he sees all the possible outcomes and aims for the one He desires.
I must say, it's got to be an interesting experience up there, seeing things play out, all his creatures... What a Loving God.

Any other folks sharing these or similar thoughts? Feel free to chime in.

 

[Artra]

I believe God really wants to respect Free Will; it's why he allowed Adam and Eve to be aware of the (spiritual) Fruit of Good and Evil; He couldn't hide it from them if their Free Will was to be respected. He just can't respect the harm that comes from it's misuse, and unlike us He sees the entire butterfly effect of a single seemingly insignificant sin (woah that's quite an alliteration). I don't think it's that He makes things up, but that He nudges His creations to learn these Truths on their own without having to outright make it clear. Any amount of micromanaging dilutes the purpose of Free Will, but He has to intervene with the presence of evil because it's entire purpose is to destroy His creation.

I'm still reading the Bible though, I could always have some things confused. God bless!

 

[devin553344]

Any other folks sharing these or similar thoughts? Feel free to chime in.

We have a lot of discussions regarding free will here on CF. I find it interesting when people feel they're puppets to God's will and feel they're predestined to do all the things they do good or evil. I like to think I am free to choose and have at different times even offended God for my decisions. I try to do better now that I'm older. And sometimes I please God with my decisions. I guess I look at things different than others.

 

[rnmomof7]

We are only free to choose from the choices given to us.. God has ordained our nature and the choices that are available to us.. As an example.. you can not choose to wear black socks if there are only brown socks in your drawer . You can not choose to heal your cancer. God has perfect foreknowledge because He ordains all things..

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe God really wants to respect Free Will; it's why he allowed Adam and Eve to be aware of the (spiritual) Fruit of Good and Evil; He couldn't hide it from them if their Free Will was to be respected. He just can't respect the harm that comes from it's misuse, and unlike us He sees the entire butterfly effect of a single seemingly insignificant sin (woah that's quite an alliteration). I don't think it's that He makes things up, but that He nudges His creations to learn these Truths on their own without having to outright make it clear. Any amount of micromanaging dilutes the purpose of Free Will, but He has to intervene with the presence of evil because it's entire purpose is to destroy His creation.

I'm still reading the Bible though, I could always have some things confused. God bless!

I dont find the term "free will" in the bible or that God "honors" it. We make many day to day choices based on our nature, our ability and circumstances.. all predestined by God.. isn't it wonderful that He really does have a plan for us !

 

[devin553344]

I dont find the term "free will" in the bible or that God "honors" it. We make many day to day choices based on our nature, our ability and circumstances.. all predestined by God.. isn't it wonderful that He really does have a plan for us !

The Judgment is also in His plan, just a thought It's based off of our works.

 

[eleos1954]

I keep thinking along these lines...

What is the impact of our free will? Does God know everything that will happen or just the general outline? With every decision made don't we change the result? (I might have been involved in this kinda thinking for too long).

I feel as if God makes somethings up as he goes. Like with the Hebrews I feel like he did everything to prevent them from cheating... He tried loving them out of it.. He tried punishment. Set out all the rules he saw as necessary to ensure their purity... But Jesus came bringing clarity because we still didn't get the point.

Calling to mind Ezekiel's task, to eat bread baked with human dung... How he protested... And God reduced it for his sake to Cow dung. These things I find amazing. God shows great emotion. I also keep wondering about the image we possess, maybe it isn't only physical...

Now these thoughts I know Christians arent generally open to. Not that God isn't Truly Almighty! Dont get me wrong! I'm just thinking that we truly have free will and it creates some interesting variables.
I imagine God changing certain things to touch our hearts a certain way, but I dont think this always works. Maybe he sees all the possible outcomes and aims for the one He desires.
I must say, it's got to be an interesting experience up there, seeing things play out, all his creatures... What a Loving God.

Any other folks sharing these or similar thoughts? Feel free to chime in.

Psalm 139:2 ESV
You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.

Psalm 94:11 ESV
The Lord—knows the thoughts of man, that they are but a breath.

1 John 3:20 ESV
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Matthew 12:25 ESV

Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

Matthew 9:4 ESV
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?

If He knows all thoughts then He knows what everybody is going to , say/do, but does not interfere with our choices to say or do.

If one has invited Him in ... through study of His Word, the Holy Spirit, He will help us change our thinking and then what we say/do will become more in line with His intended precepts. This continues over our life time. (sanctification)

Philippians 1

English Standard Version
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

and ... AMEN!

 

[rnmomof7]

The Judgment is also in His plan, just a thought It's based off of our works.

Is it? I thought it was grace

 

[devin553344]

Is it? I thought it was grace

Check Revelation 20:12 for the final judgment.

 

[devin553344]

Is it? I thought it was grace

Ephesians 2:8-9 talks about being saved by grace so that we cannot boast. Then you must ask yourself, what is the final judgment of works? It must also be true.

 

[Danayah]

I believe God really wants to respect Free Will; it's why he allowed Adam and Eve to be aware of the (spiritual) Fruit of Good and Evil; He couldn't hide it from them if their Free Will was to be respected. He just can't respect the harm that comes from it's misuse, and unlike us He sees the entire butterfly effect of a single seemingly insignificant sin (woah that's quite an alliteration). I don't think it's that He makes things up, but that He nudges His creations to learn these Truths on their own without having to outright make it clear. Any amount of micromanaging dilutes the purpose of Free Will, but He has to intervene with the presence of evil because it's entire purpose is to destroy His creation.

I'm still reading the Bible though, I could always have some things confused. God bless!

Great! Imagine how boring things would be if everything went according to plan? Or maybe not so, imagine how valuable we are if we love Him on our own accord, if given free will we choose to obey him? Yeah... Makes sense when making creatures, not robots :-D .

 

[Danayah]

We are only free to choose from the choices given to us.. God has ordained our nature and the choices that are available to us.. As an example.. you can not choose to wear black socks if there are only brown socks in your drawer . You can not choose to heal your cancer. God has perfect foreknowledge because He ordains all things..

Great insight! Makes sense!

 

[Danayah]

I dont find the term "free will" in the bible or that God "honors" it. We make many day to day choices based on our nature, our ability and circumstances.. all predestined by God.. isn't it wonderful that He really does have a plan for us !

Does that mean he plans for us to disobey?

 

[rnmomof7]

Check Revelation 20:12 for the final judgment.

This is not a judgement on salvation or damnation .. for the saved a judgement of rewards, for the lost a final Both the saved and unsaved will be at that judgement the saved for rewards and the damned for judgement

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. 2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV

 

[rnmomof7]

Does that mean he plans for us to disobey?

It is the nature of man to sin because of the fall.. everything an unsaved person does is sin to God.. Does God ordain some sin for His purpose and glory? He ordained the crucification of Christ .. the most heinous sin men have ever committed

 

[Bob Crowley]

I lifted the following paragraph from this link - Roots of Hitler's Evil

One gains, for instance, considerable insight into Hitler's contempt for the parliamentary system from Hamann's engaging description of the Austrian parliament, which Hitler visited repeatedly during his first year or two in Vienna. The Austrian parliament was often paralyzed by ethnic rivalries, which regularly produced filibusters (in a variety of languages from the multi-ethnic empire, but with no translators), as well as raucous and outrageous use of noisemakers to kill debate on contentious bills. All too often ethnic hostilities spilled over into fisticuffs on the floor of parliament.

The OP mentioned the "Butterfly Effect", which I find a bit of a joke personally. To say that a butterfly flapping it's wings in the Amazon jungle could result in a tornado across the US is to me absurd. At the quantum level, things might be mysterious. but when they're put together they seem to work together to produce a pretty consistent earth and universe. I've just had a glass of wine, and the empty tumbler is sitting on my desk. The sub atomic particles which make up the glass tumbler may well be mysterious entities in themselves, elusive and mysterious. But all else being equal, if I buried that tumbler in a tough container in the ground, and someone dug it up in 1000 years time, it would most likely still be a tumbler, and almost unchanged, despite the peculiar world of the quantum particles of which it is comprised.

However, when it comes to human affairs, we don't know what effect our behaviour might have on others. It may well be the parliamentary antics of Austrian politicians in the 1920's had a salutary effect on one young man looking on askance at their stupidities, and possibly vowing that if he got his chance, he would not tolerate such an anarchic system. Yet God tolerated their stupidity, and later Adolf Hitler's turgid mind and gross evil.

So was God in charge? Maybe He was, but it seems to me He allows a lot of opportunity for evil to thrive. In fact, my old Presbyterian pastor once said to me, "I sometimes wonder if He wants to win." I for one wonder if God isn't going to bring victory out of some sort of pyrhhic victory over the powers of evil, just when they seem to have the ultimate hand.

I believe there is an element of predestination, and Hitler was probably predestined to do what he did. In doing so, he did an incalculable amount of damage to humanity. Yet God tolerated it, despite the fact so many suffered and died because of Hitler. If it comes to that, God HImself suffered and died in the form of Christ, and suffered intently. Judas on the other hand seemed predestined to destruction - "It would be better for that man if he had never been born..." and "not one has been lost, except the one who must be lost, in order that the Scriptures be fulfilled" (or words to that effect).

But we will still be held accountable for our actions. Judas was - "it would have been better for (Judas Iscariot) if he had never been born!" I believe Adolf Hitler certainly was, and we will be too. I don't think I'd like to be in Hitler's shoes right now.

Meanwhile the mystery of predestionation and free will remains. We're not in a position to understand God - "As far as the heavens are above the earth, so are my thoughts above your thoughts." But we know enough to believe we'll be held to account for our actions, or the lack of them.

We don't know what God's plan might entail. What we do know is that we will finally answer for our role in it.

 

[DennisTate]

I keep thinking along these lines...

What is the impact of our free will? Does God know everything that will happen or just the general outline? With every decision made don't we change the result? (I might have been involved in this kinda thinking for too long).

I feel as if God makes somethings up as he goes. Like with the Hebrews I feel like he did everything to prevent them from cheating... He tried loving them out of it.. He tried punishment. Set out all the rules he saw as necessary to ensure their purity... But Jesus came bringing clarity because we still didn't get the point.

Calling to mind Ezekiel's task, to eat bread baked with human dung... How he protested... And God reduced it for his sake to Cow dung. These things I find amazing. God shows great emotion. I also keep wondering about the image we possess, maybe it isn't only physical...

Now these thoughts I know Christians arent generally open to. Not that God isn't Truly Almighty! Dont get me wrong! I'm just thinking that we truly have free will and it creates some interesting variables.
I imagine God changing certain things to touch our hearts a certain way, but I dont think this always works. Maybe he sees all the possible outcomes and aims for the one He desires.
I must say, it's got to be an interesting experience up there, seeing things play out, all his creatures... What a Loving God.

Any other folks sharing these or similar thoughts? Feel free to chime in.

Good question.... I tried my best to deal with the answer here:

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?


In 1979 I was at the Worldwide Church of God Festival of Tabernacles / Sukkot in Charlottetown, P. E. I., (at least that is what it was called back in those days)..... .and a Pastor gave a sermon on
1 Kings 18
........ and added some bonus material.

His theory was that Elijah...... had a window of opportunity to set in motion a series of events that would have led to the restoration of the Northern Kingdom of Israel........ but....... in order to do it he had to NOT RUN AWAY TO MT. HOREB???????


9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entrance of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?