Do you think reading the bible is important?

[Jane_the_Bane]

Please excuse me. What in particular should we treat the Bible the same as? Do you have a specific text?

The same as *any* text, academically speaking.
The same methods and criteria that are applied to any historical document, literary text, or cultural artifact (to discern their authorship, historical context, relationship with other texts/artifacts, historicity etc.) have to apply to supposedly "holy" books as well. If you insist on exempting it from such scrutiny, or dismiss the findings of such research because they do not fit your a priori conclusions or beliefs, you ARE engaging in special pleading. (Of course, this is basically a tacit admission of defeat, as facts do not need this kind of special protection to withstand even the most critical of looks.)

To give you an example, many historical sources describe certain people as gods or descendants of gods: the Egyptian pharaohs, Alexander the Great and his successors, Julius Caesar and the Emperors, etc.
We do not treat these claims in the same way as we'd treat, say, a source that described Ramesses II. campaign against the Hittites, Alexander's victory over Darius III., or Caesar's Gallic wars. Not just because we no longer believe in the religions and cults that revolved around these assumptions of godhood, but also because they do not bear close scrutiny in the same way.

 

[dcalling]

The same as *any* text, academically speaking.
The same methods and criteria that are applied to any historical document, literary text, or cultural artifact (to discern their authorship, historical context, relationship with other texts/artifacts, historicity etc.) have to apply to supposedly "holy" books as well. If you insist on exempting it from such scrutiny, or dismiss the findings of such research because they do not fit your a priori conclusions or beliefs, you ARE engaging in special pleading. (Of course, this is basically a tacit admission of defeat, as facts do not need this kind of special protection to withstand even the most critical of looks.)

To give you an example, many historical sources describe certain people as gods or descendants of gods: the Egyptian pharaohs, Alexander the Great and his successors, Julius Caesar and the Emperors, etc.
We do not treat these claims in the same way as we'd treat, say, a source that described Ramesses II. campaign against the Hittites, Alexander's victory over Darius III., or Caesar's Gallic wars. Not just because we no longer believe in the religions and cults that revolved around these assumptions of godhood, but also because they do not bear close scrutiny in the same way.

I actually agree with you on that. since I was a former atheist, it took me many years of debating my Christian friends (and later jump into the Quran) to finally confirm my path is correct. I enjoyed our debate on evolution as well

 

[the iconoclast]

I said as a general rule.

Studies have been done, which demonstrate non believers tend to have more knowledge of religion, than the typical believer.

Hey hey

So now it is 'as a general rule'. What studies do you speak of that affirm this?

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

Absolutely everything you find in Jesus I find in Nature and Creation.

Hey hey you

Well you know how to grab my attention. When we consider atonement and salvation, What is one thing found in Jesus that is found in nature?

Cheers

 

[Pethesedzao]

I think it is absolutely imperative that every Christian not only reads but studies the word of God to enable them to determine the truth and full knowledge of His word. This is the very root of the problem among many who profess to be Christian. With so many false doctrines and watered down preachings out there the only way to determine what is truth is to go to the source. We must pray asking The Lord for guidance and understanding and study His word in order to better understand it the way she intended it.

Have you been baptized with the Spirit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Have you been baptized with the Spirit?

Absolutely I am no doubt a new creation of God. I still stumble from time to time but always striving to serve The Lord by walking in the Spirit and praying for guidance.

 

[dlamberth]

Hey hey you

Well you know how to grab my attention. When we consider atonement and salvation, What is one thing found in Jesus that is found in nature?

Cheers

The Light of God.

 

[the iconoclast]

The saving grace of Christ.

Hey hey

Sorry answered before your edit

Jesus is salvation and His sacrifice atonement, this is found in nature. How so? Nature is the truth and the light and the way, no one can come to God but through nature?

 

[dlamberth]

Hey hey

Sorry answered before your edit

I'm sorry I edited after you saw it. I felt a better way to answer you than the words that I used and changed it. I think they mean the same things, but worded differently

Jesus is salvation and His sacrifice atonement, this is found in nature. How so?

Salvation can be found in the very core of all of this Creation. It has always has been there from the very start. Salvation can also be found in every Human Being who goes through the suffering that life hands them. And it can be found in first sight of a mountain meadow in full spring bloom. And it most definitely can be found in my grand-daughters giggles and laughter when running and playing. All of which are examples of Nature/Creation in various Saving forms.

Nature is the truth and the light and the way, no one can come to God but through nature?

Maybe the way I'd word it is that God is in Nature and Nature is in God. Even Jesus is in Nature. The fact that He came from a woman's womb spells that out pretty clearly. But the Truth and the Light and the Way have been a part of Creation and never separate from it from the very beginning. I understand that perhaps that's not how you understand it. But for myself I'm not able to separate God from His own Creation. So the way I'd explain it using Christian images is that Creation is the "first" body of Christ. And that's why every creature, tree and blade of grass speaks the Word and they ALL speak of God.

 

[Rajni]

Nature is the truth and the light and the way, no one can come to God but through nature?

Job 12:7
But ask the animals, and they will instruct you; ask the birds of the air, and they will tell you.

Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Zoness]

Hey hey zoness

Lets go through them all one by one. Ill play devils advocate - a shame - you will be the pro side. We shall eplore together and come to a conclusion.

Lets look at animism first. Why is animism more a draw card for you than Jesus?

What is attractive about animism?

Cheers hey

I don't mean to be impolite, but what exactly is the point of this exercise? I'll be out of the country for a week with limited access to Internet and I'm not too sure where this is going in relation to the OP.

However, I don't recall saying that any specific of the options are automatically better but they're different than the strict monotheism; Christianity strongly disallows you from exploring any spiritual tradition outside of it's rigid orthodoxy. That was more of my central premise, for clarification.

Take care

 

[ViaCrucis]

A person was talking about jesus with me recently, and during our conversation she admitted she's never actually read the bible. She's only only ever watched "the passion of christ". In fact I've met several people like that one of them even wanted to convert me. So my question is do you think its important for a Christian to have read the bible?

It's generally expected, or at least assumed--regardless of where you go to church--that you'll at least get your nose a little bit into the pages of the Bible.

While I suppose there might be some places where there's bragging rights for having read the Bible cover to cover, I've never felt any strong need to sit down and read it cover to cover. I'd rather someone have a grasp on what they have read, then simply having read a lot and not really grasp it.

It's also important to remember that this entire conversation is only possible due to the technological marvels of mass produced books and the social progress of mass literacy. So while I can say that I would expect a Christian living in an affluent society in the modern era to have read some Scripture; that is an expectation that is uniquely modern. Most Christians throughout history have only encountered Scripture through the liturgy, as it was read out loud; not because (contrary to popular misconception) bad people tried to keep the Bible way, but because without mass book printing technology books were time-consuming, precious, hand-copied tomes.

All of that said: Yes, I think it is very important for Christians to be familiar with our sacred texts. I think the study, reading, hearing, etc of Scripture is a quintessential part of Christian devotion and practice.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[the iconoclast]

The Light of God.

Hey hey

What is this light of God that is found in both nature and Jesus? How do i atone through nature?

Cheers

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

How do i atone through nature?

Atone for what?
The whole question makes no sense.

Morality is not a spiritual endeavour - it is a social one. As such, it is pretty important to ensure that we get along with each other, cooperate, protect ourselves against harm from antisocial behaviour and develop a sense of community (just to mention a few).

Mixing religion and morality, however, usually results in pretty ugly mess. At best, you end up with superfluous nonsense like "do not part your hair on the right side on a tuesday" or "never eat red fruit". But at worst, you'll end up with stuff like public stoning for extramarital affairs, jail sentences for homosexual people or breastfeeding mothers being arrested for "public indecency".

 

[TheOldWays]

Atone for what?
The whole question makes no sense.

gotta agree with Jane. the idea that we have to atone for anything is a concept that can be discarded for spiritual betterment.

 

[Rajni]

Hey hey

What is this light of God that is found in both nature and Jesus? How do i atone through nature?

Cheers

Perhaps you missed it. See post #110.

 

[dlamberth]

Hey hey

What is this light of God that is found in both nature and Jesus?

Let there be Light...after that God started creating.
Creation is the first body of Christ/the Light of God.

How do i atone through nature?

Cheers

Atone through Nature
By attuning with Nature.

 

[the iconoclast]

Atone for what?
The whole question makes no sense.

Hey hey jane

Would you prefer me to answer this post or your other? I would love to wipe the slate clean and continue here, but am happy to do what ever?

Cheers you

 

[the iconoclast]

Job 12:7 But ask the animals, and they will instruct you; ask the birds of the air, and they will tell you. Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse

Hello my dear Please excuse me, i did not see this post.

So that previous post and the most recentskate around this question "what is this light of God that is found in both nature and Jesus? How do i atone through nature?"

Job 12:7 But ask the animals, and they will instruct you; ask the birds of the air, and they will tell you.

Job 12 we have Job’s answer to Zophar’s discourse, in which, as before, he first reasons with his friends.

Could you please explain to me how this verse confirms that dlamberth is correct and the light of God is found in both nature and Jesus? How does this verse show how i atone through nature?

How does Psalm 19:1 - The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands - confirm the light of God is found in both nature and Jesus? How does

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse - confirm the light of God is found in both nature and Jesus?

Check out my post to dlamberth re atonement before you answer any of this.

Cheers lets reason together my dear love you

 

[the iconoclast]

Let there be Light...after that God started creating.

Hey hey, im back So this light of God that is found in both nature and Jesus, is the same light that God created after He created the heavens and the earth?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Lets consider this passage from John.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

When we consider the nature of Jesus, How does the created light of God fit in here if Jesus is eternal and from the beginning?

Creation is the first body of Christ/the Light of God.

So Jesus is light - ie the natural agent that stimulates sight and makes things visible? How is creation the first body of Christ?

Ps Will need some biblical references from you.

Atone through Nature By attuning with Nature.

Atonement is the action of making amends for a wrong or injury. It is used - in the NT sense - to describe the saving work that God did through Christ to reconcile the world to himself, and also of the state of a person having been reconciled to God. Sacrifice accomplishes atonement "for sins" and therefore is redemption - the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation - which means to appease and in this case appease to God - for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Atonement in the OT

Genesis 4:4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering.

Leviticus 23:26-27 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD. Then he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the LORD, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering, and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt."

Atonement ie a sacrifice to atone for sins - THE main concept of Christianity - and integral to the saving nature of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is the last and only way to atone and become reconciled to God.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

So how do i atone for my sins - via sacrifice - to appease God through nature?

When we consider the Christian doctrine of atonement - ie sacrifice.

How does attuning with Nature satisfy this requirement?

How do i atone through nature?

Why do you conflict with Christian doctrine here, if you are a believer and follower of Christ?

How do i receive the Holy Spirit through nature?

My dear, if you want to convince me of your position then you will need to try harder. I want some detail in your responses and biblical verses to confirm it.

Anyways you know how to get my attention and you have it.

Give me what you got. Tootles