Bring Back the Wise Men

[crossnote]

I'm sure if the astrologers of the day saw the king maker Jupiter align with Venus.. love... and witnessed Jupiter align with Regulus in the Lion constellation. they might have assumed some thing was up. They would check around to see who had predictions about what relating to such a kingmaking conjunction. Or they might have heard the prophecy and checked the charts for a king maker. Then they would travel and certainly not hit town right on time but inquire and of course the shepherds and the like would no doubt would have told many a tale round the water cooler leading to the identity of the folks involved. Just everyday sleuthing. T'is why Herod said text me if you find anything about who they are.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Check the pagan charts? Whoa Nellie.

Who said that? I suggest you retract that.

I said it, it was a question. Why must I retract a question? lol

 

[timothyu]

I said it, it was a question. Why must I retract a question? lol

Your question then must have been to yourself as no one else said what you asked about My final response to your baiting.

 

[DamianWarS]

Lately you have been told to put away the Wise Men from your nativity scene because Jesus was about two years old when the wise men arrived to worship Him? Look at these passages again...

(Luk 2:1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luk 2:2) (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
(Luk 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of DavidView attachment 251503
(Luk 2:5) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(Luk 2:6) And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
(Luk 2:7) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.


(Mat 2:1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
(Mat 2:4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(Mat 2:5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(Mat 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(Mat 2:7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
(Mat 2:8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ok, the way I see this is that Nazareth is about 98 miles to the north of Bethlehem, a huge journey by foot. At the birth of Jesus, Herod sends the wise men to Bethlehem from Jerusalem (a short distance) after demanding of the chief priests and scribes where this 'new born king' would be born. The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child.

Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth? Naww, a natural reading of these passages will show that the Wise Men belong with Christmas and we can once again sing 'We Three Kings'.

The importance of this of course is not the nativity sets and Christmas (etc.) but the Scripture twisting that goes on through reinterpretation.

this certainly isn't definitive. Mat 2:16 says "[Herod] sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men." so according to the text Herod is under the impression that the child is under 2 years old and this was "according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men" I think if anything this points to that the child is no longer a newborn and probably over the age of 1.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The Magi visited Jesus "in the house", probably that of Elizabeth and Zacharias, who lived in an (unnamed) city in the hill country of Judea. Mary and her cousin Elizabeth undoubtedly became very close due the circumstances of the conception and birth of John and of Jesus. It is clear that Mary attended the birth of John and it is likely that Elizabeth did as well when Jesus was born. It is very likely that Mary fulfilled the "days of her purification" in the home of Elizabeth and Zacharias, and remained there until they fled to Egypt.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

The Greek gives no definite indication of the age of a "young child", the term used several times for Jesus in this regard. It can mean an "infant" or "young child" up to the age of seven.

 

[crossnote]

Your question then must have been to yourself as no one else said what you asked about My final response to your baiting.

No, it was to you. It was my question to you. Unique? Perhaps. No one said you had to answer it either.

 

[crossnote]

this certainly isn't definitive. Mat 2:16 says "[Herod] sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men." so according to the text Herod is under the impression that the child is under 2 years old and this was "according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men" I think if anything this points to that the child is no longer a newborn and probably over the age of 1.

As I mentioned in another response yesterday,
"Or Herod used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?"
I'll add again, do you think Mary and Joseph stuck around in Bethlehem for two years instead of heading back home to Nazareth nearly 100 miles away?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As I mentioned in another response yesterday,
"Or Herod used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?"
I'll add again, do you think Mary and Joseph stuck around in Bethlehem for two years instead of heading back home to Nazareth nearly 100 miles away?

The "two years" relates to this time span.

Matthew 2:16
"Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men."

What it means concerning the age of Jesus isn't known. Perhaps the wise men hung around that long in order to confuse Herod and thus protect the whereabouts of Jesus from him.

 

[mreeed]

The "two years" may also factor in the time the star first appeared as being *possibly* the time when Jesus was born, and the wise men coming on a long journey since that time. Certainly paranoid Herod would take this into account. Whether Jesus was actually born when the star appeared as opposed to when the star rested over him or some other time in that general period is unclear. Not having studied the astronomy/astrology of the time, perhaps pagan astrology (in Herod's mind; wise men may have had other influences, such as Daniel) would more likely relate to the conjunction of heavenly bodies to an actual birth time compared to God who may have more personalized the star's appearing and path to the wise men He was directing, and the place He knew Jesus would be when they arrived, including perhaps some time of obfuscating it from Herod's purposes. (Good point OldWiseGuy, hadn't thought of that.)

 

[Monk Brendan]

Lately you have been told to put away the Wise Men from your nativity scene because Jesus was about two years old when the wise men arrived to worship Him? Look at these passages again...

(Luk 2:1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luk 2:2) (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
(Luk 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of DavidView attachment 251503
(Luk 2:5) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(Luk 2:6) And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
(Luk 2:7) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.


(Mat 2:1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
(Mat 2:4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(Mat 2:5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(Mat 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(Mat 2:7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
(Mat 2:8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ok, the way I see this is that Nazareth is about 98 miles to the north of Bethlehem, a huge journey by foot. At the birth of Jesus, Herod sends the wise men to Bethlehem from Jerusalem (a short distance) after demanding of the chief priests and scribes where this 'new born king' would be born. The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child.

Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth? Naww, a natural reading of these passages will show that the Wise Men belong with Christmas and we can once again sing 'We Three Kings'.

The importance of this of course is not the nativity sets and Christmas (etc.) but the Scripture twisting that goes on through reinterpretation.

The Western tradition has the Magi coming some time after the birth of Jesus.

The Eastern commemorates the Magi as being present at the Nativity.

 

[crossnote]

The "two years" relates to this time span.

Matthew 2:16
"Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men."

What it means concerning the age of Jesus isn't known. Perhaps the wise men hung around that long in order to confuse Herod and thus protect the whereabouts of Jesus from him.

And Mary and Joseph hung around for two years instead of going back home to Nazareth?
The wise men were warned in a dream not to go back to Herod.

Matthew 2:12-13 (KJV) And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

 

[His student]

The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child. Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth?

The star appeared two years before when Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The wise men either followed it for two years or, more likely, formulated plans to go to the place where the star was indicating some time later.

The star's leading may have taken them to a house back in Nazareth. We simply don't know.

You - and perhaps most others - are assuming the star led the wise man to a house in Bethlehem. The scriptures do not say that.

There is more than one assumption going on from several sides of the inquiry in people's reading of the story.

This isn't the only portion of scripture where people read into it what they want to see. I suppose we all have that tendency unless we guard hard against it.

 

[timothyu]

This isn't the only portion of scripture where people read into it what they want to see

You can thank tradition, just like 2 of each on the ark.

 

[crossnote]

The star appeared two years before when Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The wise men either followed it for two years or, more likely, formulated plans to go to the place where the star was indicating some time later.

The star's leading may have taken them to a house back in Nazareth. We simply don't know.

You - and perhaps most others - are assuming the star led the wise man to a house in Bethlehem. The scriptures do not say that.

There is more than one assumption going on from several sides of the inquiry in people's reading of the story.

This isn't the only portion of scripture where people read into it what they want to see. I suppose we all have that tendency unless we guard hard against it.

There is nothing in the text that says the star 'may have led them to Nazareth'.
And no one is assuming the star (or shekinah) led them to Bethlehem...it's in the text itself.

Matthew 2:2-10 (KJV) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And Mary and Joseph hung around for two years instead of going back home to Nazareth?
The wise men were warned in a dream not to go back to Herod.

The "two years" time span has nothing to do with Mary, Joseph, and Jesus and how long they stayed anywhere.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is nothing in the text that says the star 'may have led them to Nazareth'.
And no one is assuming the star (or shekinah) led them to Bethlehem...it's in the text itself.

Matthew 2:2-10 (KJV) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

True. If the wise men visited Jesus soon after the star "stood" it was in "the house", not in a stable in Bethlehem. If Joseph had a "house" in Bethlehem they wouldn't have sought a room in the "Inn". It is likely the house of Zacharias, where Mary would be cared for during her recovery from childbirth. They may have then returned to Nazareth and from there journeyed to Egypt.

 

[crossnote]

The "two years" time span has nothing to do with Mary, Joseph, and Jesus and how long they stayed anywhere.

My poin was for those who think the wise men worshipped Jesus when he was 2 years old meant that Mary and Joseph had to of stayed in Bethlehem/Jerusalem area for two years before the Maji came.

 

[His student]

There is nothing in the text that says the star 'may have led them to Nazareth'.
And no one is assuming the star (or shekinah) led them to Bethlehem...it's in the text itself.

Matthew 2:2-10 (KJV) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

Obviously it doesn't say in the text that they were led to Nazareth. I didn't say that it did. What I did say was:

The star's leading may have taken them to a house back in Nazareth. We simply don't know.

I'd ask you to show me where it my post it says that they were necessarily led to Nazareth or in the text where it says they were led to a house in Bethlehem. But then I'd just be playing games with you since they obviously are not there.

It is NOT in the text that says where Jesus and His parents were two years after His birth.

What is in the text is that Herod heard from his people that the child was born in Jerusalem and he send the wise men there assuming that the child would still be there 2 years after His birth. Herod (and perhaps the wise men at least for a time) "assumed" that - just as you have.

Do you know what happens when you "assume" something?

You end up going on a wild goose chase until you either reason things out or ask around for the truth from wise council as the wise men may have done from the people in Bethlehem or sought the present location from the Lord Himself.

Of course they may have simply arrived in Bethlehem as led by Herod and company, saw the location of the star itself up Norh, and (as Hawkeye would say)" real subtle like turned to the right" and trudged on.

Are we clear now?

 

[crossnote]

Obviously it doesn't say in the text that they were led to Nazareth. I didn't say that it did. What I did say was:

The star's leading may have taken them to a house back in Nazareth. We simply don't know.
I'd ask you to sh

I'd ask you to show me where it my post it says that they were necessarily led to Nazareth or in the text where it says they were led to a house in Bethlehem. But then I'd just be playing games with you since they obviously are not there.

It is NOT in the text that says where Jesus and His parents were two years after His birth.

What is in the text is that Herod heard from his people that the child was born in Jerusalem and he send the wise men there assuming that the child would still be there 2 years after His birth. Herod (and perhaps the wise men at least for a time) "assumed" that - just as you have.

Do you know what happens when you "assume" something?

You end up going on a wild goose chase until you either reason things out or ask around for the truth from wise council as the wise men may have done from the people in Bethlehem or sought the present location from the Lord Himself.

Of course they may have simply arrived in Bethlehem as led by Herod and company, saw the location of the star itself up Norh, and (as Hawkeye would say)" real subtle like turned to the right" and trudged on.

Are we clear now?

And here is what I said...

There is nothing in the text that says the star 'may have led them to Nazareth'.
And no one is assuming the star (or shekinah) led them to Bethlehem...it's in the text itself.

So I never assumed you said that as a statement of fact. I took it you presented it as 'a possibility' and responded accordingly, showing it was highly unlikely.
So the assuming may be in your court, not mine.

 

[crossnote]

True. If the wise men visited Jesus soon after the star "stood" it was in "the house", not in a stable in Bethlehem. If Joseph had a "house" in Bethlehem they wouldn't have sought a room in the "Inn". It is likely the house of Zacharias, where Mary would be cared for during her recovery from childbirth. They may have then returned to Nazareth and from there journeyed to Egypt.

Robertson, in his Word Pictures, says this...

"MT 2:9
Went before them (proegen autous). Imperfect tense, kept on in front of them, not as a guide to the town since they now knew that, but to the place where the child was, the inn according to Lu 2:7. Justin Martyr says that it was in a cave. The stall where the cattle and donkeys stayed may have been beneath the inn in the side of the hill."

 

[DamianWarS]

As I mentioned in another response yesterday,
"Or Herod used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?"
I'll add again, do you think Mary and Joseph stuck around in Bethlehem for two years instead of heading back home to Nazareth nearly 100 miles away?

I think it brings a sufficient amount of doubt on your claim, and since the traditional view is that the wise men came when Jesus was closer to 2 and tends to support that view. The wise men I might add went to a house not a staple so at the very least it shows that Mary and Joseph seemed to be established enough in Bethlehem that they moved out of the stable. How long exactly is too long in your view anyway? it gets a little silly because in the end what exactly are you defending anyway?

Matthew's account is the only account that brings the wise men up so should we not look to Matthew's account to ascertain when they arrived and how old Jesus was? So what is Mathew saying? Luke may very well be telling the same account but simply skipped over the wise men and said they went home but an exact timeline is not really what the point, he's just picking and choosing the moments he wants to tell.

If you want to look at the modern scholarly view the wise men and subsequent Herod's killing on the children under 2 is a myth to prop up Christ as the true Messiah. These sort of posthumous accounts are actually common in Eastern thinking as the value is not about if it's true or not but rather how well does it tell the truth. If the truth is Jesus is God's son then, of course, wise men came to visit him, and of course, he is a typology of Moses as these things declare the truth with stronger notes. If it really happened or not is the point, the point is Jesus is important and we should stop and take notice.

Take a look at the Catholic church, Peter is declared the first Pope, but is he actually functioning as the Pope? no of course not, nor was that his role, but it doesn't matter, he is posthumously given the title of Pope so that the office of the Pope has a single line of succession and is given more authority. Those outside the Catholic church disagree but those inside it vehemently defend it. We, however, all agree with the account of the wise men (at least that they came) regardless of what evidence seems to suggest because we believe in its goal that Jesus is the Son of God. Since the wise men account agrees with this we accept it as fact and don't care about others information says. It is a religious blindness and you're taking the account too literal with information that really can't be reconciled.