Bring Back the Wise Men

[crossnote]

Lately you have been told to put away the Wise Men from your nativity scene because Jesus was about two years old when the wise men arrived to worship Him? Look at these passages again...

(Luk 2:1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luk 2:2) (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
(Luk 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

(Luk 2:5) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(Luk 2:6) And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
(Luk 2:7) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.


(Mat 2:1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
(Mat 2:4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(Mat 2:5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(Mat 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(Mat 2:7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
(Mat 2:8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ok, the way I see this is that Nazareth is about 98 miles to the north of Bethlehem, a huge journey by foot. At the birth of Jesus, Herod sends the wise men to Bethlehem from Jerusalem (a short distance) after demanding of the chief priests and scribes where this 'new born king' would be born. The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child.

Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth? Naww, a natural reading of these passages will show that the Wise Men belong with Christmas and we can once again sing 'We Three Kings'.

The importance of this of course is not the nativity sets and Christmas (etc.) but the Scripture twisting that goes on through reinterpretation.

 

[JAYPT]

Lately you have been told to put away the Wise Men from your nativity scene because Jesus was about two years old when the wise men arrived to worship Him? Look at these passages again...

(Luk 2:1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luk 2:2) (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
(Luk 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of DavidView attachment 251503
(Luk 2:5) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(Luk 2:6) And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
(Luk 2:7) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.


(Mat 2:1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
(Mat 2:4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(Mat 2:5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(Mat 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(Mat 2:7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
(Mat 2:8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ok, the way I see this is that Nazareth is about 98 miles to the north of Bethlehem, a huge journey by foot. At the birth of Jesus, Herod sends the wise men to Bethlehem from Jerusalem (a short distance) after demanding of the chief priests and scribes where this 'new born king' would be born. The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child.

Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth? Naww, a natural reading of these passages will show that the Wise Men belong with Christmas and we can once again sing 'We Three Kings'.

The importance of this of course is not the nativity sets and Christmas (etc.) but the Scripture twisting that goes on through reinterpretation.

Interesting, I had never heard of this before. Thanks for sharing!

 

[musicalpilgrim]

The wise men are described as scholars by Eugene Peterson who translated the Bible into the Message. I think they must have been amazing to follow the leading of the star...what faith!

 

[timothyu]

Ok, the way I see this

Then is wouldn't be necessary to kill all kids 2 and under
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

 

[David Kent]

Lately you have been told to put away the Wise Men from your nativity scene because Jesus was about two years old when the wise men arrived to worship Him? Look at these passages again...

(Luk 2:1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
(Luk 2:2) (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
(Luk 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of DavidView attachment 251503
(Luk 2:5) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
(Luk 2:6) And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
(Luk 2:7) And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.


(Mat 2:1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
(Mat 2:4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(Mat 2:5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(Mat 2:6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(Mat 2:7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
(Mat 2:8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
(Mat 2:9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Ok, the way I see this is that Nazareth is about 98 miles to the north of Bethlehem, a huge journey by foot. At the birth of Jesus, Herod sends the wise men to Bethlehem from Jerusalem (a short distance) after demanding of the chief priests and scribes where this 'new born king' would be born. The star continues leading the wise men the way to Bethlehem and the child.

Question: Since Mary and Joseph came down to Bethlehem (98mi) to pay taxes, how come they are still there two or so years later, when their family is up in Nazareth? Naww, a natural reading of these passages will show that the Wise Men belong with Christmas and we can once again sing 'We Three Kings'.

The importance of this of course is not the nativity sets and Christmas (etc.) but the Scripture twisting that goes on through reinterpretation.

You cut Luke's account short. Jesus' circumcision would be on the eighth day, when he was named.

• Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
• 22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
• 23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
• 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
• 25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
• 26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
• 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
• 28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
• 29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
• 30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
• 31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
• 32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
• 33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
• 34And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

Mary's purification was in Jerusalem 40 days after the birth of Jesus. So the Wise men must have come after that.

Next the family returned to Galilee.

• Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

So they must have returned to Bethlehem later, then after the wise men visited, they went to Egypt, then back to Nazareth.

Of course both accounts have omitted spome details so there may be another interpretation.

 

[David Kent]

You could also omit the stable from your nativity scene as there is no stable mentioned in scripture.

 

[JackRT]

We know that they were "magi" but we don't really know if they were wise men and they certainly weren't kings. We don't even know if there were three of them, just that there were three gifts. So what are magi? Magi is the plural of magus and a magus was a priest of the Zoroastrian religion centered in modern day Iran and Iraq.
So what is the connection that has these people show up in the birth narrative of Jesus? The most obvious connection is that the Jews were dragged into a long captivity in Babylon in that region. Before the exile the Jews attributed both good and evil to YHWH. Isaiah 45:7 is just one verse that demonstrates this. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Most Christians continue in this belief to the present day. Given the proximity of Babylon to Israel, it is not hard to see the connection between Zoroastrianism and Judaism continuing at some level. Even at the time of Jesus there were still a million or more Jews living in the Babylon area. We also encounter in the New Testament the strange character of Simon Magus. Now we know what he actually was.

 

[crossnote]

Then is wouldn't be necessary to kill all kids 2 and under
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Or he used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?

 

[crossnote]

We know that they were "magi" but we don't really know if they were wise men and they certainly weren't kings. We don't even know if there were three of them, just that there were three gifts. So what are magi? Magi is the plural of magus and a magus was a priest of the Zoroastrian religion centered in modern day Iran and Iraq.
So what is the connection that has these people show up in the birth narrative of Jesus? The most obvious connection is that the Jews were dragged into a long captivity in Babylon in that region. Before the exile the Jews attributed both good and evil to YHWH. Isaiah 45:7 is just one verse that demonstrates this. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Most Christians continue in this belief to the present day. Given the proximity of Babylon to Israel, it is not hard to see the connection between Zoroastrianism and Judaism continuing at some level. Even at the time of Jesus there were still a million or more Jews living in the Babylon area. We also encounter in the New Testament the strange character of Simon Magus. Now we know what he actually was.

According to the topic at hand, do you believe the wise men were present near the same time as Jesus' birth or as some claim, two years later?

 

[David Kent]

According to the BBC website it is a monotheistic religion.

"Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest monotheistic religions. It was founded by the Prophet Zoroaster in ancient Iran approximately 3500 years ago. expand all."

It says they believed in one creator, but there was an evil force contending with God, but that is what we believe, is it not? (Or as they say in some parts of London "init")

 

[crossnote]

You cut Luke's account short. Jesus' circumcision would be on the eighth day, when he was named.

• Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
• 22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
• 23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
• 24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
• 25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
• 26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
• 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
• 28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
• 29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
• 30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
• 31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
• 32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
• 33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
• 34And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

Mary's purification was in Jerusalem 40 days after the birth of Jesus. So the Wise men must have come after that.

Next the family returned to Galilee.

• Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

So they must have returned to Bethlehem later, then after the wise men visited, they went to Egypt, then back to Nazareth.

Of course both accounts have omitted spome details so there may be another interpretation.

I cut it short because I saw no connection to my point. Why would Magi, being divinely directed by a star come under Jewish purification law?

 

[JackRT]

Or he used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?

Herod (the Great) certainly was paranoid. Caesar Agustus, a close personal friend of Herod was quoted as saying, “I’d rather be Herod’s pig than his son.” He killed three of his sons, one of his ten wives, his mother-in-law and an uncle.

 

[David Kent]

Or he used it as an excuse, super cautious and was given to paranoia, read up about him. In any case the text seems pretty clear. Did the star 'hang out' for two years?

Read the text. Herod asked them when the star appeared. They may have travelled much further than we think so the journey woul take a long time. I would assume that Herod probably rounded the time up, but not by two years.

 

[David Kent]

Herod (the Great) certainly was paranoid. Caesar Agustus, a close personal friend of Herod was quoted as saying, “I’d rather be Herod’s pig than his son.” He killed three of his sons, one of his ten wives, his mother-in-law and an uncle.

And his son in law who he had made high priest.

 

[timothyu]

Did the star 'hang out' for two years?

I'm sure if the astrologers of the day saw the king maker Jupiter align with Venus.. love... and witnessed Jupiter align with Regulus in the Lion constellation. they might have assumed some thing was up. They would check around to see who had predictions about what relating to such a kingmaking conjunction. Or they might have heard the prophecy and checked the charts for a king maker. Then they would travel and certainly not hit town right on time but inquire and of course the shepherds and the like would no doubt would have told many a tale round the water cooler leading to the identity of the folks involved. Just everyday sleuthing. T'is why Herod said text me if you find anything about who they are.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

 

[JackRT]

T'is why Herod said text me if you find anything about who they are.

And no doubt Herod's secret police tailed the Magi straight to Bethlehem.
PS --- I am quite serious.

 

[timothyu]

And no doubt Herod's secret police tailed the Magi straight to Bethlehem.

Double oy 7 ?

 

[crossnote]

Read the text. Herod asked them when the star appeared. They may have travelled much further than we thing so the journey woul take a long time. I would assume that Herod probably rounded the time up, but not by two years.

He also asked the scribes 'where' the Christ was to be born, so after Herod asked the wisemen 'when' the star appeared, he sent the wise men to Bethlehem.

 

[crossnote]

I'm sure if the astrologers of the day saw the king maker Jupiter align with Venus.. love... and witnessed Jupiter align with Regulus in the Lion constellation. they might have assumed some thing was up. They would check around to see who had predictions about what relating to such a kingmaking conjunction. Or they might have heard the prophecy and checked the charts for a king maker. Then they would travel and certainly not hit town right on time but inquire and of course the shepherds and the like would no doubt would have told many a tale round the water cooler leading to the identity of the folks involved. Just everyday sleuthing. T'is why Herod said text me if you find anything about who they are.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Check the pagan charts? Whoa Nellie.

 

[timothyu]

Check the pagan charts? Whoa Nellie.

Who said that? I suggest you retract that.