Calvinism - Total Depravity Question

[JAYPT]

Paul calls himself the chief of sinners. "Sinner" is a perfectly good label to apply to a Christian.

Not really, Paul call the churches saints, we were washed, sanctified, justified, does that sound like a sinner to you?

 

[Tree of Life]

He was speaking of himself in the past tense, not the current tense.

Grammatically that's actually not the case. Paul says:

1 Timothy 1:15 - The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

15 πιστὸς4 ὁ λόγος καὶ πάσης ἀποδοχῆς ἄξιος, ὅτι Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς ἦλθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἁμαρτωλοὺς σῶσαι, ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ.

It's in the present tense in the Greek, as the english translations reflect.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not really, Paul call the churches saints, we were washed, sanctified, justified, does that sound like a sinner to you?

See post #22.

Christians are simul justus et pecator. Go and learn what these things mean.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Does a Christian go back and forth between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh? IOW, do they go back and forth between being saved, and unsaved?

A Christian can of their own will go back and forth, yes, not recommended but yes. Does the Christian go back and forth between being saved and unsaved, no. If left to our own devices and will, none would be saved. Our standing with God as sons and daughters and merits of righteousness are solely in Christ alone, thank God!

 

[JAYPT]

See post #22.

Christians are simul justus et pecator. Go and learn what these things mean.

Read whole passage and quit pulling out what suits your agenda, he was speaking about what he was, verse 13, verse 15 says it WAS a trustworthy statement.

Every book says we are Saints.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Grammatically that's actually not the case. Paul says:

1 Timothy 1:15 - The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

15 πιστὸς4 ὁ λόγος καὶ πάσης ἀποδοχῆς ἄξιος, ὅτι Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς ἦλθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἁμαρτωλοὺς σῶσαι, ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ.

It's in the present tense in the Greek, as the english translations reflect.

in context brother

1 Timothy 1:15-16

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life."

This is speaking of his need of salvation. He is a sinner in need of salvation, as are all of mankind

It doesn't change the fact that after we are saved, baptised, believers in Christ we are saints.

 

[Tree of Life]

Read whole passage and quit pulling out what suits your agenda, he was speaking about what he was, verse 13, verse 15 says it WAS a trustworthy statement.

Every book says we are Saints.

Paul also elsewhere says that he is not yet perfect:

Philippians 3:12 - Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Since God requires perfection (Matthew 5:48) we may deduce that Paul was admitting that he is a sinful man - even as a Christian! This does not mean that Paul delights in sin or continues in unrepentant sin. But it means that Christians remain imperfect and in need of sanctification throughout their lives.

 

[Tree of Life]

in context brother

1 Timothy 1:15-16

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life."

This is speaking of his need of salvation. He is a sinner in need of salvation, as are all of mankind

It doesn't change the fact that after we are saved, baptised, believers in Christ we are saints.

I don't believe your counter-argument is effective, but that's fine. See post #27 for another example of the same thing.

 

[JAYPT]

verse 15 says it WAS a trustworthy statement.

Sorry it says IS and IS referring to his past, not to his present.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't believe your counter-argument is effective, but that's fine. See post #27 for another example of the same thing.

Saint doesn't mean perfect or perfected or glorified. It doesn't mean righteous or sinless either.

It means a baptised, believer in Christ.

 

[JAYPT]

Paul also elsewhere says that he is not yet perfect:

Philippians 3:12 - Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Since God requires perfection (Matthew 5:48) we may deduce that Paul was admitting that he is a sinful man - even as a Christian! This does not mean that Paul delights in sin or continues in unrepentant sin. But it means that Christians remain imperfect and in need of sanctification throughout their lives.

You still havent addressed the fact that Paul refers to the churches as saints.

 

[Tree of Life]

Saint doesn't mean perfect or perfected or glorified. It doesn't mean righteous or sinless either.

"Saint" means "Holy One". Christians are indeed saints. But this does not mean that they are not also sinners. The guilt of our sins does not count against us because we are in Christ. And we have broken with our sin nature such that we are no longer bound to sin. But Christians are still inclined to sin and they still do sin. In this sense they are sinners who need a savior. But since they have a savior they are also saints.

Simul Justus Et Pecator

 

[Tree of Life]

You still havent addressed the fact that Paul refers to the churches as saints.

Christians are saints. They are also sinners.

 

[Hazelelponi]

"Saint" means "Holy One". Christians are indeed saints. But this does not mean that they are not also sinners. The guilt of our sins does not count against us because we are in Christ. And we have broken with our sin nature such that we are no longer bound to sin. But Christians are still inclined to sin and they still do sin. In this sense they are sinners who need a savior. But since they have a savior they are also saints.

Simul Justus Et Pecator

We are made Holy through Christ. We are baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Holy means set apart. We are no longer our own.

 

[JAYPT]

Saint doesn't mean perfect or perfected or glorified. It doesn't mean righteous or sinless either.

We are righteous, perfectly righteous. Not partly. The bible says you are either unrighteous or righteous, not in between. Of course we sin, but we are saints who sometimes sin, not slaves of sin but slaves of righteousness.

 

[Tree of Life]

We are made Holy through Christ. We are baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Holy means set apart. We are no longer our own.

I agree.

 

[JAYPT]

Christians are saints. They are also sinners.

The old man has gone, the new has come, explain to me why Romans 7 says that sin is attached to you and its not you?

 

[Tree of Life]

We are righteous, perfectly righteous. Not partly. The bible says you are either unrighteous or righteous, not in between. Of course we sin, but we are saints who sometimes sin, not slaves of sin but slaves of righteousness.

I agree we are perfectly righteous, but that judgment is not made on the basis of anything in us. We are perfectly righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ to our account. Our justification is not at all based on our regeneration or sanctification. Do you know what these things mean?

 

[Tree of Life]

The old man has gone, the new has come, explain to me why Romans 7 says that sin is attached to you and its not you?

Because we are distinct from the sin that indwells us. We have a new identity in Christ.

 

[JAYPT]

Because we are distinct from the sin that indwells us. We have a new identity in Christ.

Right, so you cant be both, you are either sinner or in Christ, you are not both.