Does God grade on a curve?

By what standard will God judge us on Judgement Day?

  • perfect conformity to the 10 commandments

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • some conformity to the 10 commandments

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the 10 commandments are irrelevant

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • other (please explain)

    Votes: 16 72.7%

  • Total voters
    22

ViaCrucis

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Ok, you have admitted the new is now, so if the old man is buried and the old self was crucified, how exactly is it still living?

You're still walking around aren't you? Sin still is present in your members, the law of sin by which you continue to sin, continue to fall short? That's the old man. That's still fallen Adam.

We are a paradox of saint and sinner, i.e. simul iustus et peccator: at once both saint and sinner. Saint, justified, holy, perfect because of the righteousness of Christ which clothes you, the new man created in Christ Jesus; sinner because you are still a sinner dead in the flesh. That conflict is the conflict which leads St. Paul to, in exasperation exclaim, "What a wretched man I am!"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JAYPT

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You're still walking around aren't you? Sin still is present in your members, the law of sin by which you continue to sin, continue to fall short? That's the old man. That's still fallen Adam.

We are a paradox of saint and sinner, i.e. simul iustus et peccator: at once both saint and sinner. Saint, justified, holy, perfect because of the righteousness of Christ which clothes you, the new man created in Christ Jesus; sinner because you are still a sinner dead in the flesh. That conflict is the conflict which leads St. Paul to, in exasperation exclaim, "What a wretched man I am!"

Yes I am walking around, the new man, at the core. You missed the part being called "it", being called "the power of sin", it is attached to you. I am not in Adam but in Christ, you cant be in both places. I have been raised and seated with Christ. Does the Holy Spirit reside in you? The bible says if you are saved, He does.

You use the word "paradox", Jesus' death was no paradox, His burial was no paradox, His resurrection was no paradox. It was real and it happened. So am I, He says I am forgiven (past tense) raised and seated in heavenly places (past tense). The NEW is now. Sounds like you are still struggling my friend. Its not about sin management but about being cross-eyed.
 
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JAYPT

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I suspect you must be confusing me for a Calvinist, I'm not a Calvinist--I'm a Lutheran. As such I don't know that I can word it any better than how Fr. Martin himself did in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

Salvation isn't about God picking and choosing who will and won't be saved; it is God's own gracious rescue of us through Jesus, who suffered and died, rose from the dead, for us. This God did out of His great love for us, by His infinite kindness and grace. It is for you, for me, and for the whole world. So that all who have faith, indeed, are saved; as the Apostle says, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The righteous shall walk by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17) so that we are indeed confident that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17), so that "whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life", the whosoever is not about my works, but about the confidence of faith--all who have faith in God's Son have life in Him. That faith which is a precious gift as St. Paul writes in Ephesians, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no one may boast." which is, as we have already seen, is given by the word of God, namely the preaching of the Gospel.

So that here, by God's precious means of Word and Sacrament, God Himself has acted, worked, and appropriated to us Christ's perfect work. For the Spirit grants faith to us here, by which we can trust in what Christ has done.

For we have, as the Evangelist writes, been born "not of blood, or will of the flesh, nor of human will, but of God"; so that all who have received Him, as granted to us by God through faith, are children of God. Even as the Apostle St. Paul expounds upon elsewhere, such as in Romans 8,

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as children by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children, and if children, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if having suffered with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."

And a little later in the same chapter,

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."

For we have been predestined in Christ, chosen in Him, and this God having worked for us through the preaching of His precious Gospel, through here His Word and Sacraments, that we should receive faith, and all which God has accomplished for us in Christ.

Christ died for you. This is good news.

So you missed the whole part where the bible CLEARLY states, that for if you believe in your heart that Christ is Lord and confess Him with your tongue, you shall be saved. That is choice, not predestination. The bible does not speak to predestining people, going down the street and picking. That is not God. He wants all to come to repentance. Not just some.

We are saved by grace (Gods grace ) by faith (our faith, we have to believe) so that no man may boast.

I am not confused and do not care about denominations. I believe what God says about you and about me. At the end of the day, whether we feel that we need to perform a response to God and that we both agree it was Him that saves, thats enough for me and is definitely not work arguing about.
 
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Belief, recognition, wanting more, paying attention to the world order around us that makes us wonder how this all came to be. Many reasons for us recognizing God. For some people its grief, wondering what is after this world. Its different for all people. There is no one thing that makes all people want to discover God.

For a lot of people Oscarr, unfortunately they have to come to the end of themselves before they will turn to Christ for salvation (myself included).
But the natural man is totally opposed to God and anything to do with him. He may want to know more about the world, how it came into being and what is after it, but he will refuse to include God or Christ in it. The Scripture says that the natural man can never understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. All that a natural man has to believe is evolution, and some vain hope that there may be something after death, but other than that, total extinction of existence. He may very well wonder about the world around him, but he will be totally blind to anything of God and of Christ. The Scripture says that the god of this world has blinded his eyes so that he cannot see or comprehend the gospel of Christ. So, how can the natural man make a choice in the direction of God on his own, when he is totally unable to?

So, it comes back to my question: What causes a natural man to have conviction of his own sinfulness before God and to start crying out to God for salvation?
 
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So if was all up to God and not to you, tell me, why is the bible around? Why Jesus? He could have lived, not died and just went to heaven, God pre-picked everyone so, what does it matter? If we had no choice, is it really love? Do you really love God when its all of Him and all of Him?

Im not sure if you missed the whosoever in John 3:16, whosoever denotes a choice.
If the natural man reads the Bible and says, "Phooey! It's just a lot of fairy tales!" which most natural men do, then just reading the Bible does nothing at all to bring conviction of sin by itself. There's nothing magical about the words of the Bible on their own. You can quote Scripture to an unsaved man until the cows come home and he will still say, "Phooey!" to it.

I am saying that the natural man will always choose sin and selfishness. He cannot choose for God by himself. So, here is my question again, what causes a natural man to come to even the most elementary understanding of the gospel?
 
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If it's up to me then it is of myself. That's how that works.

If my salvation is up to me, then I am hopelessly lost--for in myself there is nothing of merit, I am a hopeless and helpless beggar.

I give thanks to God that my salvation is not up to me, but that God in His infinite kindness has saved me in spite of myself. For He has won for me what I could never attain, and has given me all things in Christ that I might have life instead of death.

I am a dead man breathed back to life by Christ who will, in the end, even make whole these dry bones of death and share in His own glory (Philippians 3:21). World without end.

-CryptoLutheran
I think our friend tends toward Arminianism, where man initiates his own choice to believe the gospel and God responds to it. I am amazed that he cannot understand or believe what Paul writes in Romans about the total inability of natural man to even come anywhere near understanding the gospel by himself in order to be able to make any sort of choice!
 
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If it's up to me then it is of myself. That's how that works.

If my salvation is up to me, then I am hopelessly lost--for in myself there is nothing of merit, I am a hopeless and helpless beggar.

I give thanks to God that my salvation is not up to me, but that God in His infinite kindness has saved me in spite of myself. For He has won for me what I could never attain, and has given me all things in Christ that I might have life instead of death.

I am a dead man breathed back to life by Christ who will, in the end, even make whole these dry bones of death and share in His own glory (Philippians 3:21). World without end.

-CryptoLutheran
Furthermore, if a person does not see himself as a totally worthless sinner, hateful in God's sight, and deserving of hell, and has a deep conviction of it to the point where he starts crying out to God with heart-felt and desperate prayers for grace and mercy, he cannot be truly converted to Christ. If he does make a profession of Christianity, it is just religion because all it will be is outward show and Christ will not acknowledge him on the last day.

You will tell through the words of one who has just "got religion". They will say that I am deluded, giving false doctrine, an extreme Calvinist, and too strict in describing the narrow gate and path to salvation.
 
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JAYPT

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I think our friend tends toward Arminianism, where man initiates his own choice to believe the gospel and God responds to it. I am amazed that he cannot understand or believe what Paul writes in Romans about the total inability of natural man to even come anywhere near understanding the gospel by himself in order to be able to make any sort of choice!

I dont "tend" towards anything. You are saying there is no way that we can make a choice. Thats absolutely ludicrous. If that was the case, there would be no need for Paul (came to preach to the Gentiles) or Christ (came to preach to the Jews) or any of His disciples, neither of you have answered my questions yet I continually show you both scriptures that say otherwise.
 
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JAYPT

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Furthermore, if a person does not see himself as a totally worthless sinner, hateful in God's sight, and deserving of hell, and has a deep conviction of it to the point where he starts crying out to God with heart-felt and desperate prayers for grace and mercy, he cannot be truly converted to Christ. If he does make a profession of Christianity, it is just religion because all it will be is outward show and Christ will not acknowledge him on the last day.


For a lot of people Oscarr, unfortunately they have to come to the end of themselves before they will turn to Christ for salvation (myself included).

I think thats what I said.
 
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JAYPT

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I think our friend tends toward Arminianism, where man initiates his own choice to believe the gospel and God responds to it

That is not what i said, Jesus forgave us all 2000 years ago, was buried and rose from the dead 2000 years ago. His blood forgives me once for all and His resurrection saves me. I chose to believe that what He promises is true.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes I am walking around, the new man, at the core. You missed the part being called "it", being called "the power of sin", it is attached to you. I am not in Adam but in Christ, you cant be in both places.

And yet here we are, both justified saints and wretched sinners.

I have been raised and seated with Christ. Does the Holy Spirit reside in you? The bible says if you are saved, He does.

The promise and word of God is that, yes, the Spirit does reside in me. That is His promise to us in Christ.

You use the word "paradox", Jesus' death was no paradox, His burial was no paradox, His resurrection was no paradox. It was real and it happened.

You do know what the word paradox means, yes? It doesn't mean that something didn't happen or isn't real. It means that there are two seemingly contradictory things which are true at the same time. And our Lord Jesus is a perfect example of paradox, the Incarnation presents us with a profound paradox: Jesus Christ our Lord is both God and man in one undivided Person. The Person of Jesus suffered and died, but now we have a paradox, how can God suffer and die? God cannot suffer and die, yet Jesus--who is God--did indeed suffer and die. Some attempt to explain away this paradox by denying the Incarnation, they say that "only the human nature died", that is a denial of the Incarnation, it is to say that Jesus is a divided Person. It's the heresy of Nestorianism, that we can divide Jesus between divinity and humanity, only the humanity was conceived and born, suffered and died. But we do not confess that Jesus' humanity was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and dead; we confess that Jesus Christ was conceived, born, suffered, crucified, dead, and buried. That Jesus being both God and man in perfect Hypostatic and Personal Union.

So that is the paradox: God who cannot suffer, did suffer. God who cannot die, did die. That's the doctrine of the Incarnation, that's the Gospel. And it is a profound, scandalous, and wonderful paradox of our faith. Indeed the Apostle writes, "Great is the mystery of our religion, God became man..."

So am I, He says I am forgiven (past tense) raised and seated in heavenly places (past tense). The NEW is now.

Yes, all those things are absolutely true. I haven't suggested otherwise. We are forgiven, we are seated in heavenly places, we are God's children, etc. All of those things are absolutely and wonderfully true.

Sounds like you are still struggling my friend.

Of course I am, I'm a Christian. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner. The Lord calls me to a life of repentance, as I struggle against the flesh, against the old man who seeks to exert his will. The old man always desires his own way. That is how the old man continues to rage, by extolling his own glory, by insisting on the opinion of the law: He thinks himself more lofty, special, greater than other sinners, thinking that he is righteous under the law. The old man does not admit that he is a sinner. The old man does not confess that he is a wretch, held under bondage, the old man will never cry out to God to save him.

My need for Jesus Christ did not end when I became a Christian. Why do you think the author of Hebrews writes to tell us to set our gaze upon Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith? Why do you think we are told to run the race?

Does the Apostle not say, "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you." (Philippians 3:12-15)

Here what Paul is saying here. He is not saying that we must earn our salvation, but he is speaking plainly that we have not attained that glory which is to come. There is a race to be run, a goal to set our gaze upon. We are to look forward, toward Jesus. Because the old man continues to exert himself, the war between the old man and the new is right here. Note also, "let those of us who are mature think this way", it is not the spiritual person who thinks themselves already complete, that is what the old man thinks, that is what the carnal man thinks.

There is a Russian word, prolest, used by the Eastern Orthodox. It translates to "delusion" but as used in Eastern Orthodoxy refers more precisely to spiritual delusion. In short prolest is a spiritual sickness wherein a person thinks themselves spiritual when they are not, it is a false, counterfeit spirituality. Such a person thinks they have attained great spiritual heights, but they are merely suffering from a delusion of the soul. It's a rather fantastic word that describes so much of our false spirituality, how so often as Christians we begin to think we have attained some great level of spiritual life, we imagine ourselves mature, lofty, and so many things.

Martin Luther, in his letter to Philip Melancthon wisely advises, "Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner." Indeed, pray hard, for you are a sinner, as am I, as is everyone.

Its not about sin management but about being cross-eyed.

How can one cling to the cross if he does not recognize that he is a sinner? If you are not willing to admit to yourself that you are quite a sinner, then you do not have your gaze upon the cross, but on something else. Instead, turn your attention again to the cross, cling hard, trust in Christ, remember your baptism, He alone saves you.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Show me where in the bible that it says man cannot make a choice to God?

"There is no one righteous, not even on; there is none who understands, no one seeks after God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:10-18

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I dont "tend" towards anything. You are saying there is no way that we can make a choice. Thats absolutely ludicrous. If that was the case, there would be no need for Paul (came to preach to the Gentiles) or Christ (came to preach to the Jews) or any of His disciples, neither of you have answered my questions yet I continually show you both scriptures that say otherwise.

God creates faith through the preaching of the word, this has already been said,

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17

The whole point of the preaching of the Gospel is that God works through these Means to bring faith to sinners. Faith, which is God's gift, not of ourselves, if you recall,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JAYPT

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So that is the paradox: God who cannot suffer, did suffer. God who cannot die, did die. That's the doctrine of the Incarnation, that's the Gospel. And it is a profound, scandalous, and wonderful paradox of our faith. Indeed the Apostle writes, "Great is the mystery of our religion, God became man..."

So yes he did suffer and die, physically, you are conflating 2 ideas. There is no paradox. It is not contradictory. God became flesh and He died physically not spiritually.

"There is no one righteous, not even on; there is none who understands, no one seeks after God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:10-18

This is from Psalms in the OT. Not NT teaching, nice try though. You flagrantly miss Romans 3:19 which tells you that it speaks to those who are under the law. Are you and I under the law? No, we are not under the law.

How can one cling to the cross if he does not recognize that he is a sinner? If you are not willing to admit to yourself that you are quite a sinner, then you do not have your gaze upon the cross, but on something else. Instead, turn your attention again to the cross, cling hard, trust in Christ, remember your baptism, He alone saves you.

I dont cling to the cross, I cling to the risen Christ, it is by His resurrection that I have life. I was a sinner, but now I am a saint, just like the saints that Paul wrote to in every church. I am a saint who sometimes sins. Im not sure why I would remember my baptism, and yes, we can both agree that Jesus alone saves us.

Of course I am, I'm a Christian. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner. The Lord calls me to a life of repentance, as I struggle against the flesh, against the old man who seeks to exert his will. The old man always desires his own way. That is how the old man continues to rage, by extolling his own glory, by insisting on the opinion of the law: He thinks himself more lofty, special, greater than other sinners, thinking that he is righteous under the law. The old man does not admit that he is a sinner. The old man does not confess that he is a wretch, held under bondage, the old man will never cry out to God to save him.

My need for Jesus Christ did not end when I became a Christian. Why do you think the author of Hebrews writes to tell us to set our gaze upon Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith? Why do you think we are told to run the race?

My need for Christ did not end when i became a Christian either however my identity in Him changed and so did yours. You are warring against sin, not yourself. Romans 7:17 (you bringing up Romans 7).

There is a Russian word, prolest, used by the Eastern Orthodox. It translates to "delusion" but as used in Eastern Orthodoxy refers more precisely to spiritual delusion. In short prolest is a spiritual sickness wherein a person thinks themselves spiritual when they are not, it is a false, counterfeit spirituality. Such a person thinks they have attained great spiritual heights, but they are merely suffering from a delusion of the soul. It's a rather fantastic word that describes so much of our false spirituality, how so often as Christians we begin to think we have attained some great level of spiritual life, we imagine ourselves mature, lofty, and so many things.

Sorry, Im not Eastern Orthodox, I take Christ at His word. If you feel that I am delusional, thats too bad. So my question still stands, if you are not completely forgiven, once for all, who exactly is shedding their blood for your sin? Hebrews 10:26. Its a blood economy and the only thing that forgives.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Did you see what was written right after that? He was comparing how Gentiles were included in the promise. We had no hope until He included us.
 
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JAYPT

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God creates faith through the preaching of the word, this has already been said,

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17

The whole point of the preaching of the Gospel is that God works through these Means to bring faith to sinners. Faith, which is God's gift, not of ourselves, if you recall,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

-CryptoLutheran


Anyways my friend you seem like you're really stuck on this dirty worm theology, Im not sure what else to say to you, if this is what you want, you can have it. As for me, I know who I am in Christ, what the bible says about me as a totally forgiven saint and that Jesus is coming back for me if I dont die first. I know my eternal destination. I have victory through Christ and I dont have much to worry about anymore as Jesus promised that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
 
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I think thats what I said.
"Coming to the end of oneself is not conviction of sin. It's just that one has tried everything to find the answers to life and has turned to religion. He has not gone through the narrow gate yet.
 
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That is not what i said, Jesus forgave us all 2000 years ago, was buried and rose from the dead 2000 years ago. His blood forgives me once for all and His resurrection saves me. I chose to believe that what He promises is true.
But you are saying that man initiates his own path to salvation through his own choice. What I am asking is that what makes him able to make that choice when in his natural state he is the prisoner of sin and can make no choice except to continue in his sin. He may get religion and become a professing Christian, attend church and do all the other religious stuff, but he remains a religious sinner - unconverted.
 
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"Coming to the end of oneself is not conviction of sin. It's just that one has tried everything to find the answers to life and has turned to religion. He has not gone through the narrow gate yet.

Oscarr, I know many individuals that never needed to be "completely broken" or similar to come to Christ. They made a choice at an early age to walk with Him. Saying this is the only way is absolutely false.
 
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