One cannot believe OSAS without believing in 5 points Calvinism

Not David

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Ahhh - temporary eternal life - the ultimate oxymoron.

Look - your status is between you and God. According to your faith - be it unto you.

As for me - I'm now seated with Him in glory and ruling in the Kingdom of God by faith.

I wouldn't be if I were not chosen before the foundation of the world to bring glory to the Father through His giving me to the Son and the Son raising me up on the last day.

Good luck with your religion. If God considers it saving faith and He has justified you through it - I'll see you in Heaven.:)

But I wouldn't trade my assurance of salvation for some of you folk's religion of hope and works for all the gold in all the world.
"For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
 
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BobRyan

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Ahhh - temporary eternal life - the ultimate oxymoron.

Look - your status is between you and God. According to your faith - be it unto you.

As for me - I'm now seated with Him in glory and ruling in the Kingdom of God by faith.

I wouldn't be if I were not chosen before the foundation of the world to bring glory to the Father through His giving me to the Son and the Son raising me up on the last day.

Good luck with your religion. If God considers it saving faith and He has justified you through it - I'll see you in Heaven.:)

But I wouldn't trade my assurance of salvation for some of you folk's religion of hope and works for all the gold in all the world.

More Bible - less creative writing please.

Matthew 18
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand only by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

You cannot fall away from something such that you cannot be "renewed again" to it -- if you never had it to start with.

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(Which is the saved condition -- not the state of the lost)

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

"For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Amen
 
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His student

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"For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
If you think that resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as my only hope of salvation is exalting myself - you are of all men most to be pitied.

Casting my hope of salvation on the sacrificed body and Spirit of the one sinless being who has ever lived on this earth - and forsaking any thoughts that I would be worthy of forgiveness when I stand before God based on anything I have or could muster from within my fallen nature - IS humbling myself.

On the other hand - believing that you could do one single thing in this life to add to or augment that sacrifice IS exalting yourselves.

I'd like to see the whole world in Heaven whether they believed correctly or not. Good luck with your understood method of salvation. If your view turns out to be the correct view and mine is the incorrect view when the Lord sorts our theology out - nothing could make me happier than to see you in Heaven with me and my risen Savior.
More Bible - less creative writing please.
"I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

I take the same approach with you as I take with the cultists who visit my doorstep. I ask them if they are saved at this minute and they tell me "no, I hope to be".

I believe that I AM saved based on my resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. My life is hidden in Christ.

You folks hope that you will be saved in the end if you manage to live up to a certain standard in your ongoing life.

One is faith the other is not.

Again - if your belief system is counted to you as righteousness as is mine - I'll rejoice in Heaven with you around the throne of God with my cultist relatives. Few things would make me happier.
 
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Not David

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If you think that resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as my only hope of salvation is exalting myself - you are of all men most to be pitied.

Casting my hope of salvation on the sacrificed body and Spirit of the one sinless being who has ever lived on this earth - and forsaking any thoughts that I would be worthy of forgiveness when I stand before God based on anything I have or could muster from within my fallen nature - IS humbling myself.

On the other hand - believing that you could do one single thing in this life to add to or augment that sacrifice IS exalting yourselves.

I'd like to see the whole world in Heaven whether they believed correctly or not. Good luck with your understood method of salvation. If your view turns out to be the correct view and mine is the incorrect view when the Lord sorts our theology out - nothing could make me happier than to see you in Heaven with me and my risen Savior.

"I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

I take the same approach with you as I take with the cultists who visit my doorstep. I ask them if they are saved at this minute and they tell me "no, I hope to be".

I believe that I AM saved based on my resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. My life is hidden in Christ.

You folks hope that you will be saved in the end if you manage to live up to a certain standard in your ongoing life.

One is faith the other is not.

Again - if your belief system is counted to you as righteousness as is mine - I'll rejoice in Heaven with you around the throne of God with my cultist relatives. Few things would make me happier.
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

Be always alert brother.
 
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Hammster

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"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

Be always alert brother.
What’s the next verse?
 
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Hammster

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for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Do you want me to quote you the next verse too?
No. But you need to not post single verses out of context. It has a tendency to make scripture say what was never intended.
 
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Not David

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No. But you need to not post single verses out of context. It has a tendency to make scripture say what was never intended.
Oh sweet irony.
I will continuing posting:
"Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain"
 
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Hammster

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Oh sweet irony.
I will continuing posting:
"Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain"
That still doesn’t address that you took a verse out of context.
 
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BobRyan

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"For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Amen

If you think that resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as my only hope of salvation is exalting myself - you are of all men most to be pitied.

Well as it turns out - that is not what I am thinking.

Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.

Rom 2:11 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Gal 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning

Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

1 Cor 9
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.


I'd like to see the whole world in Heaven whether they believed correctly or not.

Rom 2:13-16 says that many who have no access to scripture at all - will be there. And the chapter ends by saying that many who do have access to scripture will not.

I take the same approach with you as I take with the cultists who visit my doorstep. I ask them if they are saved at this minute

how do you think that helps them? Why do you think that those who do not agree with the false doctrine of OSAS don't have assurance right at this minute.

Hint. "The Arminian can know that he is saved - right-at-this-minute, but cannot know that he will continue to choose salvation 20 years from today.....

the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that".

The reason being that 3 and 5 point Calvinism "retro-deletes" today's assurance once it can be shown that 20 years from today "you fail to persevere".

Isaiah 5:4 could not exist - were Calvinism true in its arguments against Free Will.

Is 5:4 "What more could I do that I have not already done?"

Matthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and Romans 11 could not exist were OSAS true.
 
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BobRyan

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David Cabrera said:
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Do you want me to quote you the next verse too?

Good point

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

No. But you need to not post single verses out of context. It has a tendency to make scripture say what was never intended.

Sadly for that statement the definition of "out of context" is not "differs with Calvinism". And we all know it.
 
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His student

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.........Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.........................
Obviously proving Calvinism wrong is very important to you for whatever reason. Have at it if you want to.

I have debated the 5 points of Calvinism many times with both non Calvinists, and anti Calvinists - and even Calvinists themselves.

Actually better theologians than you and I have debated the 5 points for hundreds of years and will, no doubt, continue to do so in the future.

Post all of the scriptures you want to on the subject and I will not enter into a tit for tat with you on the 5 points or any one of the 5 points.

Reason being, among others, that the truth of Reformed theology is not the subject of this thread.

There are plenty of threads where tit for tats on the 5 point debate are the subject. Or - if you can't find one - you could start one of your own.

Re-read the OP and stay on point please.:)

P.S. - does "SDA" in your handle mean Seventh Day Adventist? If it does - that would go a long way to explaining your fervor for disproving OSAS.
 
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BobRyan

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Obviously proving Calvinism wrong is very important to you for whatever reason.

I simply point to obvious Bible texts that 4 and 5 point Calvinism does not survive except by 'ignoring them' (in fact deleting them as you did in your response)

You are also free to ignore all the texts in that post you are responding to.

Post all of the scriptures you want to on the subject and I will not enter into a tit for tat with you on the 5 points

I don't blame you -- as the details of those texts you are dismissing are compelling and they ARE specific to OSAS.

Re-read the OP and stay on point please.:)

I start my response on this thread pointing out that the assertion that only 4 and 5 point Calvinism have the logical structure to claim OSAS is correct. But they do not have the Bible argument for it - because the Bible disproves it.

All of the "yes - but lets avoid what the Bible actually teaches for the sake of this thread" responses will be effective in limiting my response since I don't care at all about man-made-tradition, which is all you have left once you demand that the Bible be kept out of the discussion.

I have seen that tactic used by more than one Calvinist so far. And I think it is pretty effective for them in that regard.
 
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His student

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..........I have seen that tactic used by more than one Calvinist so far. And I think it is pretty effective for them in that regard.
So - are you Seventh Day Adventist?

It's simple question.

Ignoring a simple question may be "pretty effective" in speaking with some interlocutors - but it won't be with me.
 
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BobRyan

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So - are you Seventh Day Adventist?

I am - I put SDA on my profile for "Seventh-day Adventist"

It's simple question.

Ignoring a simple question may be "pretty effective" in speaking with some interlocutors - but it won't be with me.

I find your logic "illusive" just then
 
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Silverback

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So God does not choose who to damn...? Or make (create) some (long ago) the way they are, or were going to be, and predestining them for hell (anyway)...? Or to be or stand as damned, to and from the beginning, even the very beginning...?

Everyone already stands condemned, every person who ever lived is justly deserving of damnation. Due to the fall, all of our natures have been totally corrupted. Humanity was created perfect, without sin, but through the sin of Adam death entered the world, all of creation was contaminated by this single act of sin. However, God had a plan, based on his love, kindness, and mercy, that by his grace, for Christ sake, through faith, he has redeemed humanity, and defeated death. God is not the author of sin, he did not predestine anyone to damnation, OUR own sin has condemned us, and we are all truly worthy of it. Think about it, we still kill out of petty greed, and envy, we never take responsibility for anything we do, and we teach all our sinful ways to our children. Without Christ shed blood, and sacrifice applied to us...what is there.

God Bless!
 
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Ronald

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Is that supporting me or is it against me?
It's interpretation. If those He knew He predestined, implies He didn't know all, then it has a whole different meaning. The scripture I mentioned where Jesus said, "Away from Me, I did not know you", means He didn't have a relationship with them, supports this concept. He simply doesn't have a relationship with 2/3 of the population of the planet - therefore, He only predestined those He knew. This also implies that He did not predestine reprobates - they chose their own destination, they rejected Him. They had many opportunities where He drew them, but they resisted. This goes against "Irresistible Grace". Men can resist God, he does all the time and throughout His life until He sees. Of course he cannot see until God lifts the veil of blindness. But doesn't that lifting happen gradually, removing doubts piece by piece, reading/hearing the WORD which penetrates but may lie dormant for awhile and than illumination that tips the scale? He did not subject them to death before they were born. Other verses support this concept. "He draws all men to Himself." Well, then why are not all saved you may ask? Because not all receive Him willingly. He stands at the door and knocks and not all open it.
I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, both views are flawed. Calvin tried to put salvation into a nice neat flowery box. I can argue against the first 4 points.

This is a long shot. Any relation to Alfonso Cabrera who used to work for Super Shuttle Los Angeles?
 
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Not David

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It's interpretation. If those He knew He predestined, implies He didn't know all, then it has a whole different meaning. The scripture I mentioned where Jesus said, "Away from Me, I did not know you", means He didn't have a relationship with them, supports this concept. He simply doesn't have a relationship with 2/3 of the population of the planet - therefore, He only predestined those He knew. This also implies that He did not predestine reprobates - they chose their own destination, they rejected Him. They had many opportunities where He drew them, but they resisted. This goes against "Irresistible Grace". Men can resist God, he does all the time and throughout His life until He sees. Of course he cannot see until God lifts the veil of blindness. But doesn't that lifting happen gradually, removing doubts piece by piece, reading/hearing the WORD which penetrates but may lie dormant for awhile and than illumination that tips the scale? He did not subject them to death before they were born. Other verses support this concept. "He draws all men to Himself." Well, then why are not all saved you may ask? Because not all receive Him willingly. He stands at the door and knocks and not all open it.
I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, both views are flawed. Calvin tried to put salvation into a nice neat flowery box. I can argue against the first 4 points.

This is a long shot. Any relation to Alfonso Cabrera who used to work for Super Shuttle Los Angeles?
No, that I know.
 
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Mathetes66

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I don't believe in any of the 5 points of the Tulip being Biblical; but I believe in eternal security in Christ. I don't believe in faith alone or by itself is biblical either; but by grace through faith we are saved & a saving faith is a faith that is living & visible to others. Paul & Jesus & John the Baptist taught that those who repent & believe the gospel are to BEAR FRUIT in keeping with their repentance.

The four gospel accounts of the parable of the sower/soils when harmonized, show only one of those groups is saved, the others are lost people. The difference? The last ones BEAR FRUIT; the other 3 do not.

OSASSLS: once saved always saved so LIVE SAVED.

That is what James taught. He taught the same as Paul only he emphasized that we show we are saved by a living faith. Faith by itself, alone is not saving faith. But if a person is saved, having been spiritually born again, he is a new creation, the old has passed away, the new has come.

We live then in newness of life by the direction & power of the Holy Spirit. We will then by God's grace & power do the good works He has saved us to accomplish in this life. The good works accomplished in Christ are the fruit of a saved life, not the means of the salvation.
 
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