One cannot believe OSAS without believing in 5 points Calvinism

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

People can and do but I cannot help but wonder if they've really spent much time thinking things through or just going with what a Pastor say's or choosing from a smorgasbord of doctrines acceptable within the boundaries of said denomination they subscribe to. It is a great downside to not being systematic with doctrines in approaching theology, when the aim and goal should be biblical theology, which is coherent and not confusing considering God is not the author of confusion and the Bible is revelation from the coherent mind of God to the mind of man made in the image of God.

 

[Not David]

I have no idea how you got on the subject of universalism.

No - I didn't know that I don't have eternal life. The reason I didn't know that is because it isn't true.

For you it might be true. I don't know you or your relationship with God. But for me - I know I have eternal life - now and forever because I have Jesus Christ now and forever.

"Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:12

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." John 20:31

"But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." 1 John 1:2

"And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

"In John 5:24, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.”

A less elegant translation of the first part of this would be, “the one hearing my word and believing him who sent me” has eternal life. In this case, the Greek present participles for “hearing” (akouōn) and “believing” (pisteuōn) indicate an ongoing action.

Therefore, if one were to stop hearing Jesus’ word and to stop believing the one who sent him, one would lose eternal life and pass back from life to death."

 

[redleghunter]

What do they believe then?

You are posting the OP and as such should know the finer points.

Take a look at the Synod of Dort.

 

[redleghunter]

Anyways, God chooses to save some when he could save all.

Yes Universal Reconciliation argues that.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, my thread is talking about those who aren't Calvinists or don't believe in the whole Reformed theology.

Then you may want to specify those who hold to “free grace movement.”

Which came from a group of theologians out of Dallas Seminary. But if you ask Dallas Seminary those theologians are “dead to them.”

 

[Jonaitis]

Considering not even TULIP proponents believe in double predestination.

I disagree, there are many well-known people who believe in double predestination. I personally hold to it, because it is the illogical to believe otherwise. If God predestined the total redemption of the elect, with all of the means, then God must also have predestined the reprobate to be left in their sin to be damned in hellfire. Yes, that's what double predestination means. It does not mean that God works equally in the reprobate as he does in the elect. Rather, it teaches that where God ordained the means to bring the elect to faith and salvation, he at the same time ordained that he would abandon the wicked to die in their sin so that they may be punished. This is what I have always learned from respected teachers I have come to learn under, and I agree with that definition.

 

[Jonaitis]

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.

Another significant difference between the activity of God with respect to the elect and the reprobate concerns God’s justice. The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all—in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy” (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice.

~ taken from "Double" Predestination

 

[Jonaitis]

Chapter Three (2LBC): God's Decree​

3:3 By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace. Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34. Ephesians 1:5, 6. Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4.

 

[Neogaia777]

Chapter Three (2LBC): God's Decree​

3:3 By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace. Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34. Ephesians 1:5, 6. Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4.

Do you know what that last line really means...? Anyway...

And if He chose, and created from the beginning those of whom "he would chose or make to be saved person" in time, then the "other side of the coin" has to be true as well...

And there may very well be no real choice at all, or at least about where Salvation is concerned, for anyone (at all)...?

Our choices might be able to affect things in and of and pertaining to this life or reality, but I don't know if they really have anything to do with the next, or whether we have any real choice in that (right now) (or ever)...

God Bless!

 

[rockytopva]

[Staff edit].

When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.

Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!

"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"

And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego.

[Staff edit].

 

[BobRyan]

God does not remove our free will in life, ever. Else, we’d not be so able to fall into temptation. Else, we’d not do self-serving things. Else, we’d not need to pray the full armour of The Lord over ourselves to protect us from the attacks and sting of the enemy.

True. OSAS is not a correct Bible doctrine - but if one is determined to hold it the only logical structure for it is 4 or 5 point Calvinism.

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS is the Arminian interpretation of the verses .

I have met a lot of Calvinists then who do not know your definition for it.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree, OSAS does not seem to flow logically from a systematic theology that is all about free will and the choices one makes apart from God's grace.

Indeed their claims about free will are being contradicted by holding to the unbiblical teaching of OSAS

 

[Neostarwcc]

I believe that many of the points in T.U.L.I.P are taught in the Bible. For example predestination. Predestination is taught in much old Paul's writings and from Jesus himself. I don't think that Calvanists believe in Eternal Security though. Its mostly a belief in the Protestant church isn't it?

 

[HatGuy]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

Logical does not always equal Biblical, and therein lies the debate.

Calvinism is a very, very logical system. But the Bible is more poetry than systematic. That's partly why I stopped being Calvinist - I found it made my faith very cerebral.

The Lutherans believe in predestination but not double predestination, precisely because they're courageous enough to admit the Bible is not always logical, but yet always true.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Not true in the least. Your Golden calf has lead you down a rabbit hole.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What do they believe then?

I suppose it depends what is meant by double predestination.

His reason for Creation was the Bride of Christ, for his own Glory; the lost are part of what it took to produce the members of that Bride of Christ.

 

[Jonaitis]

I believe that many of the points in T.U.L.I.P are taught in the Bible. For example predestination. Predestination is taught in much old Paul's writings and from Jesus himself. I don't think that Calvanists believe in Eternal Security though. Its mostly a belief in the Protestant church isn't it?

Eternal security is the "P" in tulip, also known as Perseverence of the Saints.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Eternal security is the "P" in tulip, also known as Perseverence of the Saints.

Thank you. I was aware of preserverence of the saints but I wasn't aware that it had anything to do with the Protestant belief of eternal security. Thanks for educating me I know now.

 

[His student]

.........
Therefore, if one were to stop hearing Jesus’ word and to stop believing the one who sent him, one would lose eternal life and pass back from life to death."

Ahhh - temporary eternal life - the ultimate oxymoron.

Look - your status is between you and God. According to your faith - be it unto you.

As for me - I'm now seated with Him in glory and ruling in the Kingdom of God by faith.

I wouldn't be if I were not chosen before the foundation of the world to bring glory to the Father through His giving me to the Son and the Son raising me up on the last day.

Good luck with your religion. If God considers it saving faith and He has justified you through it - I'll see you in Heaven.

But I wouldn't trade my assurance of salvation for some of you folk's religion of hope and works for all the gold in all the world.