Entering the Covenant

[Tree of Life]

Nope, the same way. We look back and receive salvation the way they looked forward and received salvation. Christ realized the necessary means in time to accomplish the work.

Yes both are saved by Christ. But we are saved via preaching and sacraments. Abraham was saved via promises, shadows, and types. That's what I mean by "different ways".

So if both are saved by Christ and both in the CG, why do you not see one CG which spans both Testaments yet is administered differently?

 

[Dave-W]

Why not let the Scriptures shape your definition instead?

Scripture does NOT define what a covenant is. Only the provisions. Ny definition comes from history. Ancient mid east history.

Inferred by you. I don't see why this is a good inference.

Probably because it does not fit your definition.

 

[Tree of Life]

Scripture does NOT define what a covenant is. Only the provisions. Ny definition comes from history. Ancient mid east history.

According to the ANE Suzeraine Treaty which likely is the historical backdrop of the Pentateuch, the covenant was sovereignly imposed by the Suzeraine onto the Vassal.

 

[Dave-W]

why do you not see one CG which spans both Testaments yet is administered differently?

Different administration, different covenant.
Hebrews 7, 8 and 9 all talk about a CHANGE of covenants; not just a change in administration. Part of that quotes Jeremiah 31 where it also talks about a change of covenants.

 

[Tree of Life]

Different administration, different covenant.
Hebrews 7, 8 and 9 all talk about a CHANGE of covenants; not just a change in administration. Part of that quotes Jeremiah 31 where it also talks about a change of covenants.

You're the guy who believes that people in the OT were saved by their obedience and not by faith in Christ, right?

 

[Dave-W]

According to the ANE Suzeraine Treaty which likely is the historical backdrop of the Pentateuch, the covenant was sovereignly imposed by the Suzeraine onto the Vassal.

But the vassal still could refuse it.
Of course that usually meant death, but the agreement still had to be there.

 

[Tree of Life]

But the vassal still could refuse it.
Of course that usually meant death, but the agreement still had to be there.

This sounds to me like splitting hairs. I see the curse of the covenant as death, implying that the vassal could not really refuse it (or negotiate it).

 

[Dave-W]

You're the guy who believes that people in the OT were saved by their obedience and not by faith in Christ, right?

Not how they were saved.

They were saved by remaining in the covenant; and following the prescribed remedies for disobedience. It was still faith in GOD that He would save them, and NOT by how well they obeyed.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not how they were saved.

They were saved by remaining in the covenant; and following the prescribed remedies for disobedience. It was still faith in GOD that He would save them, and NOT by how well they obeyed.

But they were not saved by Christ, correct?

 

[Dave-W]

But they were not saved by Christ, correct?

They were saved by God.

The "by Christ" part is a christian viewpoint being superimposed on the OT scripture.

 

[Tree of Life]

They were saved by God.

The "by Christ" part is a christian viewpoint being superimposed on the OT scripture.

Sorry let me be more clear. They were not saved by the work of Christ on the cross, right?

 

[Jonaitis]

Yes both are saved by Christ. But we are saved via preaching and sacraments. Abraham was saved via promises, shadows, and types. That's what I mean by "different ways".

So if both are saved by Christ and both in the CG, why do you not see one CG which spans both Testaments yet is administered differently?

I agree that the Old Covenant had the gospel preached to Israel in many shadows, types, and promises, but the Old Covenant itself did not administer those benefits of Christ to them. That was not the nature of that covenant, it had a completely carnal existence. It could only preach about another covenant for true righteousness, true forgiveness, and true reconciliation with God. But the covenant itself reaffirmed the Covenant of Works and conveyed only temporal promises to Israel.

"Since humanity brought itself under the curse of the law by its fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace. In this covenant he freely offers to sinners life and salvation through Jesus Christ. On their part he requires faith in him, that they may be saved, and promises to give his Holy Spirit to all who are ordained to eternal life, and to make them willing and able to believe.

"This covenant is revealed in the gospel. It was revealed first to Adam in the promise of salvation through the seed of the woman. After that, it was revealed step by step until the full revelation of it was completed in the New Testament. This covenant is based on the eternal covenant transaction between the Father and the Son concerning the redemption of the elect."

- LBCF 7:2, 3

Before the New Covenant arrived, the Covenant of Grace was not formally given, only announced and promised (revealed). The Covenant of Grace is one covenant revealed progressively and concluded formally under the New Covenant.

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry let me be more clear. They were not saved by the work of Christ on the cross, right?

That is one popular christian theory. And since our Lord Is God, I am sure a case can be made for that.

But a major part of the work on the cross was the shedding of blood which is required to inaugurate a covenant. Noah sacrificed animals to initiate his covenant. Abraham sacrificed animals to start his covenant. There were all kinds of sacrifices involved with the Mosaic covenant and our Lord Himself was the sacrifice for the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:18
Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

 

[Tree of Life]

That is one popular christian theory. And since our Lord Is God, I am sure a case can be made for that.

But a major part of the work on the cross was the shedding of blood which is required to inaugurate a covenant. Noah sacrificed animals to initiate his covenant. Abraham sacrificed animals to start his covenant. There were all kinds of sacrifices involved with the Mosaic covenant and our Lord Himself was the sacrifice for the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:18
Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

I'm simply asking for your view, sir. Were Old Testament believers saved by the work of Christ on the cross?

 

[Tree of Life]

I agree that the Old Covenant had the gospel preached to Israel in many shadows, types, and promises, but the Old Covenant itself did not administer those benefits of Christ to them. That was not the nature of that covenant, it had a completely carnal existence. It could only preach about another covenant for true righteousness, true forgiveness, and true reconciliation with God. But the covenant itself reaffirmed the Covenant of Works and conveyed only temporal promises to Israel.

"Since humanity brought itself under the curse of the law by its fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace. In this covenant he freely offers to sinners life and salvation through Jesus Christ. On their part he requires faith in him, that they may be saved, and promises to give his Holy Spirit to all who are ordained to eternal life, and to make them willing and able to believe.

"This covenant is revealed in the gospel. It was revealed first to Adam in the promise of salvation through the seed of the woman. After that, it was revealed step by step until the full revelation of it was completed in the New Testament. This covenant is based on the eternal covenant transaction between the Father and the Son concerning the redemption of the elect."

- LBCF 7:2, 3

Before the New Covenant arrived, the Covenant of Grace was not formally given, only announced and promised (revealed). The Covenant of Grace is one covenant revealed progressively and concluded formally under the New Covenant.

I prefer the Westminster Confession on which the LBC heavily relies. So Abraham did not receive the benefits of Christ? Nor Moses or Elijah? How is it that Moses and Elijah were not cast into hell upon their deaths and were able to appear in the presence of Christ at his transfiguration?

 

[Dave-W]

I'm simply asking for your view, sir. Were Old Testament believers saved by the work of Christ on the cross?

Perhaps. The scripture is not clear on that point.

But it is safe to say they were NOT saved by personally putting faith in that WORK. That revelation had not been made known yet.

 

[Tree of Life]

Perhaps. The scripture is not clear on that point.

But it is safe to say they were NOT saved by personally putting faith in that WORK. That revelation had not been made known yet.

Alright, enough said. Thanks for establishing that.

 

[Dave-W]

How is it that Moses and Elijah were not cast into hell upon their deaths and were able to appear in the presence of Christ at his transfiguration?

By being faithful to God via the Mosaic covenant.

 

[Not David]

They enter the Covenant by baptism since it is a continuation of the Old Testament circumcision which is the method one could enter into the Old Covenant.

 

[Tree of Life]

By being faithful to God via the Mosaic covenant.

Jonaitis believes that OT believers were saved by Christ's blood.