Why do Christians say that Jesus is the Messiah?

[dogs4thewin]

As may be but what matters is what the Word of God says. If the Creator wanted us to know that the Messiah would have to die and come again, He simply would have let us know.

that is not always the case. Not everything that God wants us to know is quite clearly written in His word.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Well you're trying to say that Satan is evil while I'm saying he is on God's side and he is carrying out his mission from God.

I am saying that Satan is evil because He is a fallen angel. He was on God's side, but then He wanted to do thins his own way and go against God.

 

[King Cyrus]

What was presented to you that you departed from Christianity? Give me specifics.

One thing would be Jesus dieing for the sins of the world which really doesn't make sense and most Christians you ask can't explain what that means either. But the main thing is the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the main prophecies concerning the Messiah son of David. To simply say that he will accomplish that later in a second coming proves nothing and frankly it probably would have been better if Jesus just skipped his "first coming" since he didn't actually do anything.

 

[King Cyrus]

I am saying that Satan is evil because He is a fallen angel. He was on God's side, but then He wanted to do thins his own way and go against God.

I know but I was trying to prove to someone that Jesus' logic in Matthew 12:25-27 is ridiculous.

 

[dogs4thewin]

One thing would be Jesus dieing for the sins of the world which really doesn't make sense and most Christians you ask can't explain what that means either. But the main thing is the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the main prophecies concerning the Messiah son of David. To simply say that he will accomplish that later in a second coming proves nothing and frankly it probably would have been better if Jesus just skipped his "first coming" since he didn't actually do anything.

He did do something. He showed us God's love in the Flash and died for our sins ( after living a perfect life so that we could be one with God. There is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. That is why in the Old Testament they had to keep killing perfect animals to often to God. Jesus shed His blood, so that all who believe may have forgiveness of sin why? How? through His shed blood.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nasty attitude.

I'm just stating that this guy seems pretty set against Christ, even using passages against him, after leaving the faith. It appears to be a waste of time.

I don't think that my comment was nasty at all. I think that many Christians underestimate the extent of the grace and mercy of God, and that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world but to save it. If you think that making any attempt to answer the guy's questions and having a discussion with him is a waste of time, then you have the right to think that, but it goes against Paul's attitude where he spent hours and hours discussing and disputing with Jewish folk to show them that the gospel of Christ was absolutely true. I don't see anywhere that Paul had a condemning attitude toward the Jews. After all, he is one himself, and was diametrically opposed to Christ before his conversion.

There is only once in one place where he turned from trying to reach the Jews in the synagogue and turned to the Gentiles. But even after that, he made every effort to try and convert as many Jews as he could to Christ.

I think our friend has valid questions and comments, and to just condemn him and say that it is a waste of time having any discussion with him, just gives him a wrong impression of what Christians are like. We don't know the reason why he converted from Christianity to Judaism. I know that many reject Christianity because of the unkind, condemning, judgmental and unloving attitude of the Christians they have encountered.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I know but I was trying to prove to someone that Jesus' logic in Matthew 12:25-27 is ridiculous.

How is that ridiculous a kingdom that is not united will not stand. Such a kingdom will fall apart and usually this leads to great unrest.

 

[King Cyrus]

How is that ridiculous a kingdom that is not united will not stand. Such a kingdom will fall apart and usually this leads to great unrest.

Because Jesus' argument is actually ridiculous from both the Jewish and the Christian point of view. Because if Satan is so crafty and devious, then it makes perfect sense that he could make it seem like someone has the power to cast out demons and then use that person to deceive the populace. The same thing applies with the Jewish understanding of Satan which is that his job is to sniff out any evil desire in men. So if Satan is commanded by God to make it seem like a false prophet has righteous powers to test the populace, then Jesus' argument again falls short. Either way it doesn't make any sense.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Because Jesus' argument is actually ridiculous from both the Jewish and the Christian point of view. Because if Satan is so crafty and devious, then it makes perfect sense that he could make it seem like someone has the power to cast out demons and then use that person to deceive the populace. Either way it doesn't make any sense.

that is why there are false Prophets and such that claim to be Jesus and/or to be acting by and through the holy spirit, but in reality are not

 

[King Cyrus]

that is why there are false Prophets and such that claim to be Jesus and/or to be acting by and through the holy spirit, but in reality are not

What does that have to do with Jesus' argument that doesn't make any sense?

 

[redleghunter]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies? For instance, we read in Isaiah 11:

Nothing even remotely like this happened in the days of Jesus. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6: "See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: 'The LORD is our Vindicator.'"

I'm sure you are familiar already with the above responses there are two Advents of Messiah. Jesus outlined what would be fulfilled in the first Advent here in Luke chapter 4.

Luke 4: NASB
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Of course Jesus was reading from Isaiah 61. Specifically from verses 1-2a bolded and underlined below. Notice Jesus stops just before "And the day of vengeance of our God." Look at the following verses left in the chapter and chapters after. This is after the return of Messiah as conquering King and Judge ushering in the fullness of the Kingdom of God as He judges the nations.

Isaiah 61: NASB
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.

5Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks,
And foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.

6But you will be called the priests of the LORD;
You will be spoken of as ministers of our God.
You will eat the wealth of nations,
And in their riches you will boast.

7Instead of your shame you will have a double portion,
And instead of humiliation they will shout for joy over their portion.
Therefore they will possess a double portion in their land,
Everlasting joy will be theirs.

8For I, the LORD, love justice,
I hate robbery in the burnt offering;
And I will faithfully give them their recompense
And make an everlasting covenant with them.

9Then their offspring will be known among the nations,
And their descendants in the midst of the peoples.
All who see them will recognize them
Because they are the offspring whom the LORD has blessed.

10I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

11For as the earth brings forth its sprouts,
And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise
To spring up before all the nations.

But your questions are quite valid. After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, His own apostles asked questions of the ushering in of the Kingdom and the ages to come. After spending 40 days with the risen Christ they still had this question. This was His answer:

Acts 1: NASB
6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

 

[redleghunter]

How does a crown mocking Jesus' kingship make him king?

A king leads his people from out of oppression and bondage.

Isaiah 53: NASB

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

 

[Jonaitis]

One thing would be Jesus dieing for the sins of the world which really doesn't make sense and most Christians you ask can't explain what that means either. But the main thing is the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the main prophecies concerning the Messiah son of David. To simply say that he will accomplish that later in a second coming proves nothing and frankly it probably would have been better if Jesus just skipped his "first coming" since he didn't actually do anything.

I'm willing to address these issue. Are you willing to join another discussion thread I've made? It is this one:

Torah Observant Jews Only Discussion

I have some questions, even if you are a new convert to Judaism.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don't think that my comment was nasty at all. I think that many Christians underestimate the extent of the grace and mercy of God, and that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world but to save it. If you think that making any attempt to answer the guy's questions and having a discussion with him is a waste of time, then you have the right to think that, but it goes against Paul's attitude where he spent hours and hours discussing and disputing with Jewish folk to show them that the gospel of Christ was absolutely true. I don't see anywhere that Paul had a condemning attitude toward the Jews. After all, he is one himself, and was diametrically opposed to Christ before his conversion.

There is only once in one place where he turned from trying to reach the Jews in the synagogue and turned to the Gentiles. But even after that, he made every effort to try and convert as many Jews as he could to Christ.

I think our friend has valid questions and comments, and to just condemn him and say that it is a waste of time having any discussion with him, just gives him a wrong impression of what Christians are like. We don't know the reason why he converted from Christianity to Judaism. I know that many reject Christianity because of the unkind, condemning, judgmental and unloving attitude of the Christians they have encountered.

Yes, I am judgmental and unloving. Thank you for telling me what is in my heart.

 

[King Cyrus]

A king leads his people from out of oppression and bondage.

Isaiah 53: NASB

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

The nations are the ones speaking here (Isaiah 52:15). The servant is Israel. Not all of Israel, but the righteous of Israel to be more specific.

 

[King Cyrus]

I'm willing to address these issue. Are you willing to join another discussion thread I've made? It is this one:

Torah Observant Jews Only Discussion

I have some questions, even if you are a new convert to Judaism.

Sure

 

[King Cyrus]

I'm willing to address these issue. Are you willing to join another discussion thread I've made? It is this one:

Torah Observant Jews Only Discussion

I have some questions, even if you are a new convert to Judaism.

Hey I probably won't have time to get into a discussion right now or later but if I have time tomorrow I'll be happy to have a discussion.

 

[Jonaitis]

Hey I probably won't have time to get into a discussion right now or later but if I have time tomorrow I'll be happy to have a discussion.

Sounds good.

 

[Blade]

He king... theres a youtube channel I LOVE...its Jewish.. Jewish guys.."ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry". Look it up.. those are Jewish people that found Christ. It will really help

 

[mark kennedy]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies? For instance, we read in Isaiah 11: And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, And a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; And he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, Neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the land; And he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, And the leopard shall lie down with the kid; And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear feed; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all My holy mountain; For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, Unto him shall the nations seek; And his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the Lord will set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, And from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, And will assemble the dispersed of Israel, And gather together the scattered of Judah From the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; Together shall they spoil the children of the east; They shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; And the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; And with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, And will smite it into seven streams, And cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, Like as there was for Israel In the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

Nothing even remotely like this happened in the days of Jesus. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6: "See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: 'The LORD is our Vindicator.'"

And again it is written of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9-10: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, Lowly, and riding upon an ass, Even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, And the horse from Jerusalem, And the battle bow shall be cut off, And he shall speak peace unto the nations; And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth."

Jesus never reigned as king nor did he prosper nor was Judah delivered in his day.

We also read concerning the Messianic age in Isaiah 2: "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, That the mountain of the LORD’S house Shall be established as the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; And He will teach us of His ways, And we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He shall judge between the nations, And shall decide for many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruninghooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more."

In contrast, there has been more war after the days of Jesus than before he existed.

I'm looking to see what answers Christians have for this.

Well I see you've been busy in the thread, hope I haven't arrived too late to jump in here. What you have encountered here is the early mention of the eighth century prophet of the coming of the Messiah, mind you, this is before Israel and Judah had been invaded. Always the eighth century prophets told of the coming of the Messianic kingdom and when the king did come, he was rejected, crucified and raised three days later. In all the time after Israel returned to the land to the coming of the Messiah no son of David sat on the throne, then when Jesus, often called 'Son of David' did arrive he warned the Apostles, it's not time. For almost a thousand years and now over two thousand years we wait for that time, yet the promise persists.

I would take issue with only one point, Jesus did accomplish one thing, he put an end to sin by means of his atonement thus ending the need for sacrifice that was a constant reminder of sin. Indeed believers wait in anxious expectation for all to be fulfilled, his earthly kingdom is not yet. Evil still prevails far to often in the affairs of men, there would be few believers that do not share your frustration. But God's patience is meant to leave time for repentance, but Christ's return like his first appearance in Israel so long ago, was promised even before the foundation of the world.

If you would like to take a serious look at Messianic prophecy and how it relates to the second coming and the translation of believers at the end of the age I'm happy to participate. Just bear in mind it's a lengthy subject, not given to easy answers.

Grace and peace,
Mark