Why do Christians say that Jesus is the Messiah?

[King Cyrus]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies? For instance, we read in Isaiah 11: And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, And a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; And he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, Neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the land; And he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, And the leopard shall lie down with the kid; And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear feed; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all My holy mountain; For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, Unto him shall the nations seek; And his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the Lord will set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, And from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, And will assemble the dispersed of Israel, And gather together the scattered of Judah From the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; Together shall they spoil the children of the east; They shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; And the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; And with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, And will smite it into seven streams, And cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, Like as there was for Israel In the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

Nothing even remotely like this happened in the days of Jesus. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6: "See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: 'The LORD is our Vindicator.'"

And again it is written of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9-10: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, Lowly, and riding upon an ass, Even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, And the horse from Jerusalem, And the battle bow shall be cut off, And he shall speak peace unto the nations; And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth."

Jesus never reigned as king nor did he prosper nor was Judah delivered in his day.

We also read concerning the Messianic age in Isaiah 2: "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, That the mountain of the LORD’S house Shall be established as the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; And He will teach us of His ways, And we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He shall judge between the nations, And shall decide for many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruninghooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more."

In contrast, there has been more war after the days of Jesus than before he existed.

I'm looking to see what answers Christians have for this.

 

[Tree of Life]

The basic answer is to say that in Christ the kingdom of God is already here and not yet fully here. So Jesus fulfills these prophesies in an inaugural way, they have an ongoing fulfillment during the age of the church, and they will be finally and completely fulfilled when Jesus returns in power.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies?

As noted in "Evidence That Demand a Verdict"
as well as in thousands of other writings, books, documents, and all history,

Yeshua did fulfill all prophecies concerning Messiah , so far. And no one else did.

 

[King Cyrus]

The basic answer is to say that in Christ the kingdom of God is already here and not yet fully here. So Jesus fulfills these prophesies in an inaugural way, they have an ongoing fulfillment during the age of the church, and they will be finally and completely fulfilled when Jesus returns in power.

How did he fulfill them in an "inaugural" way?

The basic answer is to say that in Christ the kingdom of God is already here and not yet fully here. So Jesus fulfills these prophesies in an inaugural way, they have an ongoing fulfillment during the age of the church, and they will be finally and completely fulfilled when Jesus returns in power.

The Messianic Kingdom can't be here and not fully here. It's either here or it isn't. And according to the description of the Messianic Kingdom in the Tanakh, it hasn't come yet which means that the Messiah hasn't come yet.

 

[King Cyrus]

As noted in "Evidence That Demand a Verdict"
as well as in thousands of other writings, books, documents, and all history,

Yeshua did fulfill all prophecies concerning Messiah , so far. And no one else did.

What about the prophecies I just quoted?

 

[SolomonVII]

Jesus reigns as King ever since he was legitimately crowned king of Jews with the crown of thorns. He rules from his cross.

 

[King Cyrus]

Jesus reigns as King ever since he was legitimately crowned king of Jews with the crown of thorns. He rules from his cross.

How does a crown mocking Jesus' kingship make him king?

 

[SolomonVII]

Isaiah end of days prophesy alludes to the end of days.
Second Coming occurs about then too, according to further prophesy.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies? For instance, we read in Isaiah 11: And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, And a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; And he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, Neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the land; And he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, And the leopard shall lie down with the kid; And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear feed; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all My holy mountain; For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, Unto him shall the nations seek; And his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the Lord will set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, And from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, And will assemble the dispersed of Israel, And gather together the scattered of Judah From the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; Together shall they spoil the children of the east; They shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; And the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; And with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, And will smite it into seven streams, And cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, Like as there was for Israel In the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

Nothing even remotely like this happened in the days of Jesus. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6: "See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: 'The LORD is our Vindicator.'"

And again it is written of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9-10: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, Lowly, and riding upon an ass, Even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, And the horse from Jerusalem, And the battle bow shall be cut off, And he shall speak peace unto the nations; And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth."

Jesus never reigned as king nor did he prosper nor was Judah delivered in his day.

We also read concerning the Messianic age in Isaiah 2: "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, That the mountain of the LORD’S house Shall be established as the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; And He will teach us of His ways, And we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He shall judge between the nations, And shall decide for many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruninghooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more."

In contrast, there has been more war after the days of Jesus than before he existed.

I'm looking to see what answers Christians have for this.

Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 2 are speaking of the Valley of the Mountain and the 1st and second living harvests where the people of God are Gathered in to his kingdom/valley. For the most part, other parts are speaking of his first coming. Not all of it happens at the same time, it's a puzzle.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What about the prophecies I just quoted?

I don't know which ones you quoted. I'm not at all concerned with them.

They have all been dealt with perfectly and even at great length for many centuries. (since the first century).

So there is no problem finding out through prayer, and reading , and seeking from Yahweh His Kingdom.

 

[SolomonVII]

How does a crown mocking Jesus' kingship make him king?

Romans had the authority to make him king, and they did with the crown and the sign, over the objections of the Jewish elites. That was important to scripture writers that Jesus' authority was legitimate. The words were written by the authorities, and hence accepted by God, are therefore authoritative. No one dot or iota was changed to the letter of the law written, regardless of the spirit with which the law was written in.

 

[King Cyrus]

Isaiah end of days prophesy alludes to the end of days.
Second Coming occurs about then too, according to further prophesy.

But where do you see the notion of a "second coming" of the Messiah in the Tanakh?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How is Jesus the King Messiah when he did not fulfill the main Messianic prophecies? For instance, we read in Isaiah 11: And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, And a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; And he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, Neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the land; And he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, And the leopard shall lie down with the kid; And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear feed; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy In all My holy mountain; For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, Unto him shall the nations seek; And his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, That the Lord will set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, And from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, And will assemble the dispersed of Israel, And gather together the scattered of Judah From the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; Together shall they spoil the children of the east; They shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; And the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; And with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, And will smite it into seven streams, And cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, That shall remain from Assyria, Like as there was for Israel In the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

Nothing even remotely like this happened in the days of Jesus. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6: "See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure. And this is the name by which he shall be called: 'The LORD is our Vindicator.'"

And again it is written of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9-10: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, Lowly, and riding upon an ass, Even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, And the horse from Jerusalem, And the battle bow shall be cut off, And he shall speak peace unto the nations; And his dominion shall be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth."

Jesus never reigned as king nor did he prosper nor was Judah delivered in his day.

We also read concerning the Messianic age in Isaiah 2: "And it shall come to pass in the end of days, That the mountain of the LORD’S house Shall be established as the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; And He will teach us of His ways, And we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He shall judge between the nations, And shall decide for many peoples; And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruninghooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war any more."

In contrast, there has been more war after the days of Jesus than before he existed.

I'm looking to see what answers Christians have for this.

I believe Jesus is the Messiah, because He told the Samaritan woman at the well that He was when she told Him that the Messiah would come and explain everything to them. Also, John the Baptist made it quite clear that Jesus was the One who was to come, and when his disciples asked Jesus whether He was the Messiah or not, He told them to go back and tell John about the healing and miracles that were happening as conclusive evidence that He was, indeed, the Messiah.

 

[SolomonVII]

But where do you see the notion of a "second coming" of the Messiah in the Tanakh?

The better question is where in Tanakh is that rejected?

 

[King Cyrus]

I believe Jesus is the Messiah, because He told the Samaritan woman at the well that He was when she told Him that the Messiah would come and explain everything to them. Also, John the Baptist made it quite clear that Jesus was the One who was to come, and when his disciples asked Jesus whether He was the Messiah or not, He told them to go back and tell John about the healing and miracles that were happening as conclusive evidence that He was, indeed, the Messiah.

But there have been many people who have claimed to be the Messiah but the thing is that none of them fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Regarding miracles, the Torah of Moses says that false prophets can show miracles.

 

[King Cyrus]

The better question is where in Tanakh is that rejected?

The prophecies regarding the Messiah in the Tanakh are always from a single coming point of view. It doesn't specifically say that the Messiah will come twice but neither does the Christian Bible say the antichrist must come twice - it's just something that is clear from the text.

 

[maintenance man]

For one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.

Jews for Jesus

 

[Tree of Life]

How did he fulfill them in an "inaugural" way?[

It would depend on the particular prophesy. Could you pick one that we could look at in detail as an example of this principle?

The Messianic Kingdom can't be here and not fully here.

Why not? Maybe this assumption is the stumbling block.

 

[King Cyrus]

For one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.

Jews for Jesus

But the evidence does not point towards Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Regarding miracles, the Torah of Moses says that false prophets can show miracles.

That is exactly what the Jews of Christ's time said. And Christ gave the Answer.
Luke 11:
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Matt 12:
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.