I don't know if its true

[Mark51]

What scriptures, discussing predestination, were you introduced to? Please reference scriptures in future questions/replies.

 

[klutedavid]

One thing I will note is since I am now a 5-month believer.

My Biblical knowledge in the NT isn't high. I have not even read through the whole NT yet. So I don't know what it all says.

Hello John.

Happy to hear that you have put your trust in Jesus Christ.

May I ask about your background before becoming a Christian?

Personally, I would encourage a new Christian to devote themselves to reading the New Testament, rather than wandering off into theology or eschatology.

It would be advisable to have a solid knowledge of the New Testament before venturing into the various kingdoms of interpretation.

You need to know what the gospel is, how is the gospel defined in the scripture. Not what your church says the gospel is, not how that book on the shelf describes the gospel. You need to understand exactly what it is you believe and why you believe it.

How does the scripture describe Jesus Christ; Jesus said the scripture is all about Him. Why did He say that?

Hopefully John, you can reach the upward call and not be distracted long the way.

 

[JohnB445]

Hello John.

Happy to hear that you have put your trust in Jesus Christ.

May I ask about your background before becoming a Christian?

Personally, I would encourage a new Christian to devote themselves to reading the New Testament, rather than wandering off into theology or eschatology.

It would be advisable to have a solid knowledge of the New Testament before venturing into the various kingdoms of interpretation.

You need to know what the gospel is, how is the gospel defined in the scripture. Not what your church says the gospel is, not how that book on the shelf describes the gospel. You need to understand exactly what it is you believe and why you believe it.

How does the scripture describe Jesus Christ; Jesus said the scripture is all about Him. Why did He say that?

Hopefully John, you can reach the upward call and not be distracted long the way.

That is a good plan.

And the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15 1-4

I will answer the previous question soon.

 

[JohnB445]

Hello John.

Happy to hear that you have put your trust in Jesus Christ.

May I ask about your background before becoming a Christian?

Personally, I would encourage a new Christian to devote themselves to reading the New Testament, rather than wandering off into theology or eschatology.

It would be advisable to have a solid knowledge of the New Testament before venturing into the various kingdoms of interpretation.

You need to know what the gospel is, how is the gospel defined in the scripture. Not what your church says the gospel is, not how that book on the shelf describes the gospel. You need to understand exactly what it is you believe and why you believe it.

How does the scripture describe Jesus Christ; Jesus said the scripture is all about Him. Why did He say that?

Hopefully John, you can reach the upward call and not be distracted long the way.

Ok, I grew up in a non-religious household. My mom and dad believed in God but believed all religions go to God and there is no absolute truth in religion. So I just stuck with that, then growing up in my teenage years our high school teachers mocked the idea of a God and told us atheism and evolution were more rational to believe. So because the smart people seemed to believe so, I decided to jump with the bandwagon for a few years.

Most of my friends I accumulated through high school were protestant Christians and Born-Again. They asked me about religion and I wanted to fit in so I said I was a Chrisitan and I played the game of Church for two years thinking God would still be happy with me because I "Went to Church".

I said the sinners prayer to no avail. I doubted God, I wasn't sure.

The moment I said that sinners prayer, my life went down hill fast. I didn't understand what was going on, who I was, or what I was missing. Later in the summer of August 2018 I opened the Bible and it coincidently opened to a verse in John, "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish".

in a twinkling of an eye, I believe the Holy Spirit came into my room that night, convicted me of my sins, and thats when I accepted Jesus in my life. The Holy Spirit repented of all my sins for me, and changed my life and way of thinking.

It was supernatural on a physical scale as well, something I cannot describe.

Physically and emotionally, that was the best day in my life. I have never been any happier.

I genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is God, and he died for me on the cross, and raised from the dead.

I was not able to do that in the past, but now thanks to God, I can believe in him.

 

[BobRyan]

When I first came to the faith, the first people I have had as teachers and learned from were Reformed, and I have great respect for them, they helped me grow. They did tell me something that wasn't easy to settle for me when they started introducing me to predestination. The first thoughts that came into my head were "There is no way this can be true, God isn't like that is he?", and I objected, which they then showed me Bible verses I wasn't prepared to see. And the moment they showed me some verses about predestination it just stuck to me ever since.

I do wish I never heard about the concept of predestination this early on, if it is true then I was not ready to know about it, and I believe I would be better off not knowing at all about predestination. Because what is the point, when everything is already predetermined?

The whole thing with Reformed theology is I find it utterly depressing,

It is false doctrine.

The bible is true - not Calvinism.

1 Peter 1
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

What is it that God "foreknew" about the saints that results in their being "elect"? He foreknew their choice.

Rom 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

1. There is no "predestined to hell" in all of scripture
2. God also "foreknew" everything Jesus would ever do - so does God have free wlil?

Even Calvinists choke on the idea that God does not have free will due to foreknowledge. Where they are getting all tangled up is "it is hard to BE God" -- harder than they think. So when they try to work out predestination due to foreknowledge and then have to admit that God also foreknows everything He himself will do or say they are STUCK either with God who has no free will or God who has no foreknowledge OR the most likely one "it is much harder to BE God" then Calvinists had at first imagined. (the much more likely option)

As long as you stay out of God's chair - you will be just fine.

(I have been through all the land mines - I know whereof I speak)

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Many get predestination back to front. Our predestination is by Christ and not by ourselves. It is the destiny of Christ that saves us and not because we are hand-picked as "the best of the bunch". The words of Jesus are plain, except we repent we will all perish.

Yet there is a choice that God makes for Jesus also said, "many are called but few are chosen."

I am neither Calvinist or Arminian and have not studied the works of either person.

In The book of Romans Paul appears to set out predestination based on the foreknowledge of God Romans 8:29 & 30. This both allows for man's freedom to choose [often miscalled free will] and God's sovereignty in deciding and thus full purpose to proclaiming the gospel.

A sovereign God cannot break his promise. Therefore if he says all who willfully [that is by confession and profession] accept Jesus by faith will be saved he has bound himself to his own word. This is the confidence we have in our salvation: it is not of our making.

Free will says man is free to make a choice, and this is essentially true. God created our nature to be so. But man is not free to choose the consequences of that choice, nor does God recommend either or.

Through Joshua God said, "I set life and death before you; choose life."

To choose life is God's choice and the right choice. Death is the wrong choice.

Choice does not demean the sovereignty of God as some believe, but strengthens it. Choice is grace and grace is by Jesus Christ.

A sovereign God made a sovereign choice. Adam: the first man sinned and disobeyed God. The rightful consequence of that sin was death yet God chose a different way.

All sinned in Adam and by the first Adam we all are in the way of death [mortality], but this mortality is by the grace of God who chose to save humanity from immediate extinction.

Death is truly set before us and there is nothing more certain than it. Therefore the real choice is to choose life because it is the thing we do not have without Jesus Christ.

It is impossible to settle the arguments of the revelation of predestination because some, through pride, want it to mean more than the Scripture reveals, while others, and perhaps for the same reason, wish to maintain their right to choose.

I make it a point to ask what God requires of me. If I do it by God's power I am glad of it because he has saved me. If, by any means possible [though I do not think I am able], I do it in my own strength I am encouraged because he who has promised is faithful and just to keep his promise. Either way I am saved because God is sovereign and there is nothing in me that can save myself.

Ask yourself 3 questions.
1. Who chose the way of salvation?
2. Who made the way of salvation?
3. Who can save you?

If your answer to those three questions is God [or Jesus Christ] then you understand that God is sovereign and that all are predestined and chosen by him. If you do not believe that God is the answer to those three questions then you are already condemned or predestined to death.

Choose life, my friends. Follow the way of salvation and do everything God says. Refrain from evil and do good. Above all put your trust in the risen Lord Jesus for he is life to all who believe in him. Any other choice is evil for it brings evil upon you.

 

[BobRyan]

Many get predestination back to front. Our predestination is by Christ and not by ourselves. It is the destiny of Christ that saves us and not because we are hand-picked as "the best of the bunch". The words of Jesus are plain, except we repent we will all perish.

Yet there is a choice that God makes for Jesus also said, "many are called but few are chosen."

I am neither Calvinist or Arminian and have not studied the works of either person.

God sovereignly chose "His own" and so He "came to His own"
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

In The book of Romans Paul appears to set out predestination based on the foreknowledge of God Romans 8:29 & 30. This both allows for man's freedom to choose [often miscalled free will] and God's sovereignty in deciding and thus full purpose to proclaiming the gospel.

Amen!

God does not do anything without knowledge.

A sovereign God cannot break his promise. Therefore if he says all who willfully [that is by confession and profession] accept Jesus by faith will be saved he has bound himself to his own word. This is the confidence we have in our salvation: it is not of our making.

Indeed. We do not save ourselves.

And Romans 10 makes this case.
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

No wonder then that Paul says in 2 Cor 5 "we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"

"I stand at the door and knock" Rev 3 not "I select special doors of my own choosing - bust them down go in and make the person love Me"

Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"

In other words - God is not doing the very thing that Calvinism claims he is doing.

So why call Calvinism "false doctrine"? (as if not obvious at this point) -- answer: because you never hear 4 and 5 point Calvinists present these kinds of texts "frankly" and without "dismiss it" hand waiving that is "no answer at all".

 

[aiki]

When I first came to the faith, the first people I have had as teachers and learned from were Reformed, and I have great respect for them, they helped me grow. They did tell me something that wasn't easy to settle for me when they started introducing me to predestination. The first thoughts that came into my head were "There is no way this can be true, God isn't like that is he?", and I objected, which they then showed me Bible verses I wasn't prepared to see. And the moment they showed me some verses about predestination it just stuck to me ever since.

I do wish I never heard about the concept of predestination this early on, if it is true then I was not ready to know about it, and I believe I would be better off not knowing at all about predestination. Because what is the point, when everything is already predetermined?

The whole thing with Reformed theology is I find it utterly depressing, that mankind has no hope and the majority are predestined to damnation before even being created in the womb. I have been thinking if this is true, then what is the point? Is preaching to the lost being done in vain? Can we determine who is elect/non-elect? Can we know if we are the elect or just delusional? Why does God have mercy on some and not other's?

It makes me feel like I can't make a difference knowing that well I can't make a difference if God is selectively choosing who to save, and the guy I preach to doesn't even have a chance or choice unless God makes it that way. What's the purpose of praying for others, if God predestined some of my family members to hell?

This is not meant to be an insult to the Reformed, I just can't reconcile myself with this thinking.

It seems messed up, I try to hold off this belief since I think I may be blaspheming God's character for having it. But it just sticks to me, and I can't seem to fully shake it off unless I am shown proof that it is a twisted view that the Bible doesn't support.

Even though I don't want to believe in the whole 5 points Calvinism, I can't just shake it off, unless I am shown that it is false. I would be happy to find out if its false since that would mean that humanity has a chance.

The big questions I ask are.

1. Why aren't people getting saved?
2. Why aren't more people Christian?
3. Why do people fall away from the faith?
4. Why do some people do evil, harmful acts?
5. Why are people atheists, or agnostics?
6. Why don't the smartest and most knowledgeable people do not believe in Christianity?

It doesn't make any sense why people don't want to get saved. Atheism/Agnosticism makes no sense, no other religions make any sense.

Why does it make sense to them, and not Christianity?

I don't want to seem dismissive of your concerns about this soteriological stuff, but, honestly, it's too early for you to be diving into this area. There are many other things that need to be secured in your spiritual life, in your walk with God, than where on the soteriological spectrum you will stand. Shelve a serious investigation into this realm of doctrine until you've been well-established in your fellowship with God. Too often I have seen new believers badly distracted from their growth in Christ and malformed spiritually because they got caught up in the debate about Calvinism, Armenianism, Traditionalism, Molinism, etc. before they were ready for it. It's sort of like putting a fifty pound weight on a baby just learning to stand and walk.

If you are determined to investigate this area, then I would suggest looking at Molinism or Traditionalism as biblically and philosophically robust alternatives to Calvinism. Neither perspective suffers from the logical problems of Calvinism and both handle scripture more honestly than it seems to me that Calvinism does.

www.soteriology101.com (Traditionalism)
www.reasonablefaith.org (Molinism)

 

[Unboxed]

You don't have to be reformed - you don't have to believe in predestination and election! Plenty of very devout Christians (I include myself in that number) do not believe in that theory. When I read the Bible, predestination and election are not what o see (and I have read the whole Bible, so I'm not speaking from ignorance or wishful thinking). Try checking out Wesleyan and Anabaptist theology. Please don't be discouraged by one theory. I have wrestled with this too - please message me if you need encouragement, want to discuss this more deeply with someone who agrees with you, or want specific resources (books, authors, etc).