LDS Is this false prophecy or can it be explained?

[BigDaddy4]

There is not 2 timelines.

JS did not delay, nor did he cause the 2nd coming of Christ to come eartly. It is absurd to think that JS would have any bearing on when Jesus came the 2nd time.

That's not the claim @Ironhold is making. See bold below.

2. It was dependent upon Joseph being allowed to live out his natural days, which the wickedness of men did not allow for.

Are you calling Ironhold's claim absurd?

JS asked the Lord when the 2nd coming was to happen. The Lord did not want to tell him so he gave him some confusing information and said do not bother me again about this subject.

God is not the author of confusion, so your statement here is not in line with Biblical Scripture.

No prophecy was made by JS. He even says himself that he was confused about what the Lord told him. So stop with the prophecy motif.

Regardless if you think it was a prophecy or not, JS, in your scripture says:

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

This is another piece of evidence that JS was not a prophet of God.

 

[Peter1000]

That's not the claim @Ironhold is making. See bold below.

Are you calling Ironhold's claim absurd?

God is not the author of confusion, so your statement here is not in line with Biblical Scripture.


Regardless if you think it was a prophecy or not, JS, in your scripture says:

This is another piece of evidence that JS was not a prophet of God.

Ironhold and I believe the same about this statement by JS. We may say things a little differently, but I am OK with his statements.

Jesus did not want to tell JS the exact time of his second coming. So he gave him some information to think about and said bother me no more on this subject. The end.

This statement by JS says that the second coming will be no sooner than that time.
By saying no sooner, he was also saying it could be later than that time, which it is, so actually his prophecy has come true because it is exactly later than that time, as he said. Right?

 

[devin553344]

Ironhold and I believe the same about this statement by JS. We may say things a little differently, but I am OK with his statements.

Jesus did not want to tell JS the exact time of his second coming. So he gave him some information to think about and said bother me no more on this subject. The end.

This statement by JS says that the second coming will be no sooner than that time.
By saying no sooner, he was also saying it could be later than that time, which it is, so actually his prophecy has come true because it is exactly later than that time, as he said. Right?

Trying to clarify things here, but the scripture is clearly predicting the year of the second coming of Jesus the Christ:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man;...

I don't think you can deny that without becoming false to reality. If one denies reality then one can twist it into anything one wants. And that's where error happens to people trying to interpret scripture. I see it all the time here on CF. Not accepting what is simply and plainly written.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

A quick point: the msg to JSJr. is only to him, that "thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; . . ." if he lives to 85. There is nothing there for anyone else.

 

[Ironhold]

Heresy

So it's heretical to call people out for their sin?

Or is it only heretical when the people being called out are playing for the "right" team?

 

[JacobKStarkey]

'heresy' means 'wrong' nothing more

'heresy' is not 'apostasy'

 

[devin553344]

So it's heretical to call people out for their sin?

Or is it only heretical when the people being called out are playing for the "right" team?

Regarding sin. I think it is sin to be a false prophet: Revelation 19:20 which is where my opinion is leaning towards regarding the prophecy here.

And I think Joseph Smith should have read this scripture first before going public with is revelations and prophecies: 1 John 4:1. Because I believe more likely that this prophecy falls into that category of false spirits. And this scripture in 1 John 4:1 indicates we can easily be deceived, is that what happened with this second coming prediction of JS? Perhaps. Perhaps it's easier to explain it as a false spirit and therefore a false prophecy rather than stretching out reality and trying to justify it.

I mean you're trying to say that everything JS said was God. Is that a reasonable assumption? Or is it more realistic to say, he may have been misled at times and more human than you want to believe?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Ironhold and I believe the same about this statement by JS. We may say things a little differently, but I am OK with his statements.

Nice backtrack.

Jesus did not want to tell JS the exact time of his second coming. So he gave him some information to think about and said bother me no more on this subject. The end.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar and deceiver for intentionally giving false information.

This statement by JS says that the second coming will be no sooner than that time.
By saying no sooner, he was also saying it could be later than that time, which it is, so actually his prophecy has come true because it is exactly later than that time, as he said. Right?

More

 

[Peter1000]

Trying to clarify things here, but the scripture is clearly predicting the year of the second coming of Jesus the Christ:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man;...

I don't think you can deny that without becoming false to reality. If one denies reality then one can twist it into anything one wants. And that's where error happens to people trying to interpret scripture. I see it all the time here on CF. Not accepting what is simply and plainly written.

OK, take the words literally, and be very clear about what JS said. It is not difficult.

Lets start:
"Joseph, my son": Jesus is referring to JS.
"if thou livest unil thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the Son of Man": This is the condition the Lord has put on this prophecy in order for JS to see the 2nd coming of the Lord. JS had to live until he was 85 years old.
Do you think the Lord new that JS would die when he was 38? Yes.
Since JS died when he was 38, then according to his words, he would not see the second coming of the Lord while he lived on the earth. No 2 time lines, just a saying that turned out to be true.

Joseph also said that the second coming of the Lord would be no sooner than that time
(by his 85th year). It would be no sooner, but it certainly could be later, which it will be, which also turned out to be the truth.

So, there you go, prophecy fulfilled, if you insist that it was a prophecy.

 

[Peter1000]

Nice backtrack.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar and deceiver for intentionally giving false information.

More

Your response tells me I am right.

Jesus did not give false information. Where did that come from? Jesus told him that if he lived until he was 85, he would see the face of the Son of Man. How is this false information?

The prophecy would come true because of the conditions it was given. "if he lived till he was 85". If he had lived it would have come true. If he had died before he was 85 it would come true. Either way. Do you think Jesus would not know that JS would only live to be 38?

JS said no sooner than when he turns 85. Well, it turns out to be no sooner than when he would have turned 85. What do you want? You are the one that said it. You were right, it is going to be after he is 85, but no sooner. You were right. JS was right. Again, what do you want.

 

[devin553344]

OK, take the words literally, and be very clear about what JS said. It is not difficult.

Lets start:
"Joseph, my son": Jesus is referring to JS.
"if thou livest unil thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the Son of Man": This is the condition the Lord has put on this prophecy in order for JS to see the 2nd coming of the Lord. JS had to live until he was 85 years old.
Do you think the Lord new that JS would die when he was 38? Yes.
Since JS died when he was 38, then according to his words, he would not see the second coming of the Lord while he lived on the earth. No 2 time lines, just a saying that turned out to be true.

Joseph also said that the second coming of the Lord would be no sooner than that time
(by his 85th year). It would be no sooner, but it certainly could be later, which it will be, which also turned out to be the truth.

So, there you go, prophecy fulfilled, if you insist that it was a prophecy.

OK I see your confusion regarding the nature of this prophecy. Allow me to try and explain.

To address your responses in order received:

In order to say God didn't mean anything by saying:

"15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

You would have to accept a God that was making a disturbing sort of joke.

Put yourself in God's shoes for a moment and imagine saying that to your son that is about to die. Is that a nice (benevolent) thing to say. Or does it sound more like a trickster and devil? Giving a false promise?

Never-the-less the statement appears injuring and not benevolent given the context of JS's death. Which is why people are saying it was the devil probably.

Second "Joseph also said...":

Do you honestly believe Joseph wasn't capable of distorting the prophecy as to be so ambiguous that people wouldn't accuse him of receiving a false prophecy? It sounds more likely that he knew it wasn't true and therefore made it ambiguous.

But the fact of the matter is that Joseph's conjecture isn't really important as he isn't God, We have the written words of the spirit before that conjecture.

I'm trying to hear the LDS side of things, but I have to judge this prophecy from a reality stand point. I hope that's not offensive. I do enjoy the discussion

 

[Ironhold]

Regarding sin.

LDS - Is this false prophecy or can it be explained?

The person I was responded to made a statement that could be interpreted as them considering it "heretical" to call out violence done against people they do not regard as being Christian.

I was attempting to ask them for clarification to ensure what specifically they meant with that statement.

 

[devin553344]

LDS - Is this false prophecy or can it be explained?

The person I was responded to made a statement that could be interpreted as them considering it "heretical" to call out violence done against people they do not regard as being Christian.

I was attempting to ask them for clarification to ensure what specifically they meant with that statement.

Sorry I missed that.

 

[Ironhold]

Sorry I missed that.

The long and short of it is that there is a segment of mainline Christianity who don't care about wrongs done to people who aren't their flavor of Christian. I've even encountered people - including a few folks here on CF - who have tried to justify the violence and persecution that Joseph Smith and others faced.

Hence the need to ask questions and make sure.

 

[Peter1000]

OK I see your confusion regarding the nature of this prophecy. Allow me to try and explain.

I'm not confused. I have read and studied this statement for 55 years. I am not confused.

In order to say God didn't mean anything by saying:

I did not say that God didn't mean anything by saying:. God did not say anything that he did not mean to say.

It was not a horrible joke. God does not work that way.

Put yourself in God's shoes for a moment and imagine saying that to your son that is about to die. Is that a nice (benevolent) thing to say. Or does it sound more like a trickster and devil? Giving a false promise?

The promise was made in all good faith. If you live until you are 85..... No tricks, no devil, straight statement by the Lord.

Never-the-less the statement appears injuring and not benevolent given the context of JS's death. Which is why people are saying it was the devil probably.

This is not incoherent. Nothing of the sort.

Do you honestly believe Joseph wasn't capable of distorting the prophecy as to be so ambiguous that people wouldn't accuse him of receiving a false prophecy? It sounds more likely that he knew it wasn't true and therefore made it ambiguous.

It is not that ambiguous. If you live to be 85, this will happen, now do not bother me about this subject again. Actually pretty straight forward. So no reason to distort, which JS did not do as far as we can tell.

But the fact of the matter is that Joseph's conjecture isn't really important as he isn't God, We have the written words of the spirit before that conjecture.

Then let's stay with the written words of the spirit, good idea.

I'm trying to hear the LDS side of things, but I have to judge this prophecy from a reality stand point. I hope that's not offensive. I do enjoy the discussion

You are not hearing us. And you do not know what the reality stand point is, so it will be hard for you to judge this prophecy.

Thank you for the discussion though.

 

[devin553344]

The long and short of it is that there is a segment of mainline Christianity who don't care about wrongs done to people who aren't their flavor of Christian. I've even encountered people - including a few folks here on CF - who have tried to justify the violence and persecution that Joseph Smith and others faced.

Hence the need to ask questions and make sure.

Well we have plenty of false prophecies now days and their originators don't get killed by mobs. So I see your point

 

[devin553344]

You are not hearing us. And you do not know what the reality stand point is, so it will be hard for you to judge this prophecy.

Well I think I'm doing an OK job of judging for myself, which is what we must all do. And I did hear you, as I have already explained. I think more likely what's going on here is that we believe in two very different Gods and have two very different ideas of what a prophet is.

For instance I don't believe the words of that prophecy would come from my God. Nor would I follow a prophet that disclosed such a prophecy.

If you look at the very words of Joseph, he's indicating that Jesus might return before the second coming and thus the millennium:

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

This indicates that Joseph didn't really understand the second coming at all, when Christ will return in glory in the clouds for all to see, starting the millennium. Not if he's referring to "some previous appearing".

Also what I find unique about JS's conjectures is that he's adding to the prophecy of God by saying "or whether I should die and thus see his face". The prophecy simply doesn't mention any of what JS is stating here. Like he was just making stuff up to explain when and if it fails to come true.

And that's how I see it. If you don't see that then we have two very different ideas on what a prophet is, that's for sure.

 

[Peter1000]

Well I think I'm doing an OK job of judging for myself, which is what we must all do. And I did hear you, as I have already explained. I think more likely what's going on here is that we believe in two very different Gods and have two very different ideas of what a prophet is.

For instance I don't believe the words of that prophecy would come from my God. Nor would I follow a prophet that disclosed such a prophecy.

If you look at the very words of Joseph, he's indicating that Jesus might return before the second coming and thus the millennium:

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

This indicates that Joseph didn't really understand the second coming at all, when Christ will return in glory in the clouds for all to see, starting the millennium. Not if he's referring to "some previous appearing".

Also what I find unique about JS's conjectures is that he's adding to the prophecy of God by saying "or whether I should die and thus see his face". The prophecy simply doesn't mention any of what JS is stating here. Like he was just making stuff up to explain when and if it fails to come true.

And that's how I see it. If you don't see that then we have two very different ideas on what a prophet is, that's for sure.

We do have 2 very different ideas on what a prophet is, that's for sure.

Just because JS is honest and does not understand fully, does not make him a false prophet and it does not mean that he does not know what is going on about the millenium. He has taught the world more about the life after death than any person since the time of Jesus and Peter and Paul.

So I feel like you have gone into this prophecy trying to prove that it is false, and you have not wavered from the beginning. And thats OK, you don't believe JS, why should you believe his prophecies.

Have you treated the prophecies of the OT and NT with the same stringent rule??? You might be surprised.

 

[devin553344]

Just because JS is honest and does not understand fully, does not make him a false prophet

No but adding and removing from a prophecy in the manner of his commentary afterwards shows that he does not understand prophecy nor respects God like a prophet should. Which is perfectly fine if the prophecy was received from a false spirit.

and it does not mean that he does not know what is going on about the millenium.

We if he did understand the millennium then that makes it even worse for him to suggest that Jesus would appear before the millennium. That would definitely show he is a false prophet in my mind attempting to deceive people with lies.

He has taught the world more about the life after death than any person since the time of Jesus and Peter and Paul.

That's debatable, probably in a different thread though.

So I feel like you have gone into this prophecy trying to prove that it is false, and you have not wavered from the beginning. And thats OK, you don't believe JS, why should you believe his prophecies.

You're feelings deceive you then, I have been waiting for a valid explanation to the suspicious nature of this prophecy. I think the closest you got was to say that Joseph Smith's death stopped his predicted millennium. Although that's hard to believe also since it was over one persons death. Which is probably of little consequence in the big picture, I mean to say the LDS church continued without him just fine.

Have you treated the prophecies of the OT and NT with the same stringent rule??? You might be surprised.

We're still waiting for Jesus' return, but I believe in that. Also the prophecies of Jesus 1st coming did come true and all the OT sacrifice ordinances were confirmed by his death. If you believe in Moses, he predicted many plagues for the Egyptians. And Joseph in Egypt discerned dreams and interpreted them in plain language for all to understand. And Jesus proved who he was by performing many miracles for people to witness, which they did. You'd think if JS was a prophet he would have performed miracles too, but perhaps that's for a different discussion.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

The error glares at the reader: nothing "suspicious" characterizes the prophecy.