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Canadian SC: Christian law school can't forbid students from gay sex

PeaceByJesus

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No, when talking about the licitness of it, the only laws that are relevant are those where it occurred. It was entirely licit.
Definition of Licit by Merriam-Webster
: conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law.

So since homosexual marriage was not legal in CO (where the Masterpiece bakery was - "where it occurred") at the time, as per even the the highest law of the state, and out-of-state ones were not recognized, then tell me how it was entirely licit.
 
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bhsmte

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I always thought, private religious institutions, can create whatever rules they like, since they are private. Just as a private club, can refuse admittance, to anyone they choose.

Maybe in canada, they view this differently. Anyway, how do they enforce these rules? Do they keep students under surveilance?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Definition of Licit by Merriam-Webster
: conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law.

So since homosexual marriage was not legal in CO (where the Masterpiece bakery was - "where it occurred") at the time, as per even the the highest law of the state, and out-of-state ones were not recognized, then tell me how it was entirely licit.

As I stated before, "the only laws that are relevant are those where it occurred."

If I buy whiskey on a Sunday in California, this event was licit, even if it is illegal in Texas.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I wasn't arguing the merits of opposition to homosexuality. That's not permitted in this group. I was making a legal analysis. If the US and Canada are going to have religions and philosophies coexist, we need to find a way to avoid tripping over each other. Can a couple call a cab to take them from a wedding to the airport, or do they have to worry about whether the cabbie considers the wedding moral? That way lies madness.
Irrelevant comparison. The cabbie is not being asked to provide any artistic services in furtherance of a wedding.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I’m sorry, but that doesn’t discount the rest of the article and the expert concusions of the medical and scientific community. If you accept the one statement you quoted, do you accept the other conclusions in the article?
Not the politically motivated ones.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Sure they are...they might not be endorsing it, but they're certainly taking lackadaisical position when it comes to protesting against certain ones when it comes to "I, as a business owner, don't want to do that because it promotes a lifestyle choice that's against what my book teaches".

Anytime I've seen those objections, it's always centered around one "sin", that being their objection to homosexuality.

I've never seen a store owner refuse to sell a lighter to smokers.
I've never heard of a baker refusing to sell pastries to gluttons (even though I'm positive that's an encounter they've had much more often then two dudes asking for a wedding cake...I've been in bakeries, I've seen what much of the clientele looks like)

When business owners want to "object" to things, it always seem to be the thing that meets two convenient criteria for them
A) It's a sin that they, personally, find it easy to abstain from
B) It's a sin that impacts a small enough portion of the population, that it won't particularly hurt their numbers at the end of the year.

If those same bakers took as staunch of a position on the doctrine relating to gluttony, and "harming the temple" and, in turn, refused to sell sweets to anyone over 250 pounds...let's see what their books would look like at the end of the fiscal year.
That's baloney. In no other sin does one generally announce his participation and commitment.

Sure, the fat person could be fat because of eating cake 24/7 - or could have some medical condition that causes swelling, such as being on transplant anti-rejection drugs.

While I'm positive there are sellers who decline to sell lighters, when someone sells one, he doesn't know to whom it is going and for what purpose, generally speaking. No one in my family smoked, but we had lighters to light gas appliances at times. There ARE businesses that refuse to sell cigarettes and lighters.

But when someone comes into a known Christian business (there were signs all over the shop, if the people didn't know them personally) announcing they intend to enter an anti-biblical state and want your assistance as one who is an ambassador of Christ in creating a cake to celebrate said anti-biblical state, one should be within his rights to refuse to take that event.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Actually a poster in this thread was suggesting that...or at least making the claim "as long as they do it out of sight in their own home...".




Businesses aren't people...

At no point have I heard of the government telling an individual "you have to approve of this or else!". Everyone is still allowed to have their own stance on the matter and enforce whatever rules they like in their private residences.

However, when you get a business license, you're agreeing to play by a certain rule book. And in that book, includes a rule that prohibits certain forms of discrimination and service denial.

There's a lot of things I could do in my own house that I can't do as a business owner.

For instance, if I want to prepare food for a private gathering in my home without washing my hands, I could do so (that's just an example, I always wash my hands lol). However, if I opened a restaurant, and didn't wash my hands, that would cause some legal & health code issues. I could smoke a cigar in my home if I chose to...no-go in a business that serves the public.
That first assertion is false. A corporation is a "person" for purposes of the constitutional guarantees of equal protection of the law and Due Process of Law. I guess Masterpiece should have been incorporated, if it was not.

Discrimination that runs up against a Christian's (or insert other religion's) First Amendment rights should fall.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Their what planner? This was not a wedding under the law of the state.

Their reception planner. This was not a wedding at all, since that occurred in Massachusetts.
 
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Desk trauma

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Definition of Licit by Merriam-Webster
: conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law.

So since homosexual marriage was not legal in CO (where the Masterpiece bakery was - "where it occurred") at the time, as per even the the highest law of the state, and out-of-state ones were not recognized, then tell me how it was entirely licit.
The legal status of their union was and is irrelevant to CO state anti discrimination law that includes sexual orientation as a protected class.
 
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Sparagmos

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That first assertion is false. A corporation is a "person" for purposes of the constitutional guarantees of equal protection of the law and Due Process of Law. I guess Masterpiece should have been incorporated, if it was not.

Discrimination that runs up against a Christian's (or insert other religion's) First Amendment rights should fall.
One of the problems with that is that bigots quite frequently use religion to justify their hate. I don’t want to live in a world where you can walk down the street and see a sign in a business window saying “no Jews served here.”
 
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Sparagmos

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Irrelevant comparison. The cabbie is not being asked to provide any artistic services in furtherance of a wedding.
What type of art was the couple requesting on their cake? Wedding cakes don’t have writing on them.
 
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essentialsaltes

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What type of art was the couple requesting on their cake? Wedding cakes don’t have writing on them.

We don't know because the cakeshop owner refused them before they discussed it.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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As I stated before, "the only laws that are relevant are those where it occurred."

If I buy whiskey on a Sunday in California, this event was licit, even if it is illegal in Texas.
But it would be illegal in Texas. go it? Just what is the problem here? As expressed, Masterpiece bakery case was of Colorado, where homosexual marriage was not recognized, in-state of out-of-state, and thus the even that the baker refused to be complicit in celebrating was for an illegal wedding. No matter how much you may want to construe it otherwise and refuse to assent to the plain facts.
 
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Desk trauma

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But it would be illegal in Texas. go it? Just what is the problem here? As expressed, Masterpiece bakery case was of Colorado, where homosexual marriage was not recognized, in-state of out-of-state, and thus the even that the baker refused to be complicit in celebrating was for an illegal wedding. No matter how much you may want to construe it otherwise and refuse to assent to the plain facts.
The case was not brought on the grounds of discrimination based on marital status, that is a plain fact.
 
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essentialsaltes

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But it would be illegal in Texas.

would be

Subjunctive Mood. A verb is in the subjunctive mood when it expresses a condition which is doubtful or not factual.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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One of the problems with that is that bigots quite frequently use religion to justify their hate. I don’t want to live in a world where you can walk down the street and see a sign in a business window saying “no Jews served here.”
Indeed, evangelical leaders were at the forefront of the abolition movement, and very much overall show a special love for Jews, and defend Israel, while it is liberals who have been the ones harassing and even physically attacking conservatives in restaurants, etc., and work to exclude them from the marketplace. And as here, to demonize those who refuse to be complicit in celebrating immorality, as if they were KKK members.

But the case at issue here is not that a business saying “no Jews served here,” but that of refusing to contract to create a work for the expressed purpose of celebrating an event that was against the law of God - as were other events the baker also refused service for - as well as (at the time) being contrary to the highest law of the state.

Straights would also be denied contracting to create a work for the purpose of celebrating a homosexual wedding, or that btwn man and animal, or divorce, while homosexuals could contract for a birthday or graduation cake, etc., or possibly a cake for their wedding or anniversary if one had asked, and not said it was for a homosexual wedding, the nature of which being the issue.

Thus rather than denying a class of people any service (as per your analogy) or the same freedom others have, no class of people could contract for the celebration of any clearly immoral purpose.

Rather than this being analogous to your “no Jews served here" analogy, as regards Jews it is akin to that of a Jewish (or Muslim market) that supplies animal meat denying a request for ham, which lovers of swine flesh could say was discrimination, though as in the Masterpiece case, a number of other businesses would supply what was requested.

But can a bakery state it considers homosexual wedding to be morally no-kosher and thus refuse to facilitate celebrating them?

What you can argue is that this denial would be akin to a business refusing to create a work for anyone for the expressed purpose of the celebration of a racially mixed marriage, just as the business refused to create other works for celebrations it considered immoral.

Homosexual unions are not a matter of race, yet affirming this as a religious right could lead to allowing a Muslim bakery refusing to agree to create a work for anyone for the expressed purpose of the celebration of a Jewish bar mizpeh.

Courts would most likely uphold the right of a commercial painter to choose what he will paint, and refuse to create images he considers phonographic, but lovers of such are not provided the rights as a class that race, and now sexual orientation and behavior have. Thus as said, it is the latter that is the problem, making race, which is amoral, equal to a sexual attraction (even if fluid) and behavior.
 
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Belk

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Indeed, evangelical leaders were at the forefront of the abolition movement, and very much overall show a special love for Jews, and defend Israel, while it is liberals who have been the ones harassing and even physically attacking conservatives in restaurants, etc., and work to exclude them from the marketplace. And as here, to demonize those who refuse to be complicit in celebrating immorality, as if they were KKK members.

But the case at issue here is not that a business saying “no Jews served here,” but that of refusing to contract to create a work for the expressed purpose of celebrating an event that was against the law of God - as were other events the baker also refused service for - as well as (at the time) being contrary to the highest law of the state.

Straights would also be denied contracting to create a work for the purpose of celebrating a homosexual wedding, or that btwn man and animal, or divorce, while homosexuals could contract for a birthday or graduation cake, etc., or possibly a cake for their wedding or anniversary if one had asked, and not said it was for a homosexual wedding, the nature of which being the issue.

Thus rather than denying a class of people any service (as per your analogy) or the same freedom others have, no class of people could contract for the celebration of any clearly immoral purpose.

Rather than this being analogous to your “no Jews served here" analogy, as regards Jews it is akin to that of a Jewish (or Muslim market) that supplies animal meat denying a request for ham, which lovers of swine flesh could say was discrimination, though as in the Masterpiece case, a number of other businesses would supply what was requested.

But can a bakery state it considers homosexual wedding to be morally no-kosher and thus refuse to facilitate celebrating them?

What you can argue is that this denial would be akin to a business refusing to create a work for anyone for the expressed purpose of the celebration of a racially mixed marriage, just as the business refused to create other works for celebrations it considered immoral.

Homosexual unions are not a matter of race, yet affirming this as a religious right could lead to allowing a Muslim bakery refusing to agree to create a work for anyone for the expressed purpose of the celebration of a Jewish bar mizpeh.

Courts would most likely uphold the right of a commercial painter to choose what he will paint, and refuse to create images he considers phonographic, but lovers of such are not provided the rights as a class that race, and now sexual orientation and behavior have. Thus as said, it is the latter that is the problem, making race, which is amoral, equal to a sexual attraction (even if fluid) and behavior.

The courts have already rejected the reasoning presented here on multiple occasions. Perhaps it is time to move on to a different argument since this one is a non starter?
 
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