The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

swordsman1

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Cornelius was like an Old testament SAINT. The word "saint" meaning "holy, godly". There are many references to the s"saints" of God int he zoT

The OT saints were saved by them looking forward to the promised messiah as prophesied in the OT who would save them. Cornelius was a Gentile who didn't have the OT, and knew nothing of a messiah.

While all salvation is only THROUGH the work of Christ on the cross your correction is here in this section,

"1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness."(Psalm 51:1-14 KJV)

We read many words here from David. He ask for mercy, to blot out, wash me, cleanse me, purge me, Make me, hide thy face from my sin, create a clean heart in him, restore, uphold, deliver him,

Christ is present in Psalm 51. It wasn't just a matter of David asking for forgiveness.

v7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
v14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation

Dipping hyssop in animal blood and sprinkling it was part the OT sacrificial system. It was also dipped into the blood of a lamb and doubed on the doorposts and lintels of the Israelites before the Angel of Death visited thus protecting them. It was clearly symbolic of Christ
 
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swordsman1

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The "inner Light" as you refer to it. Is Jesus Christ the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This light from Christ is the word and seed and truth that works in all those who believe. This light is the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who shines in the heart (2 Cor 4) you do not see these things because I am convinced you are looking at the scriptures in the natural way and not in a spiritual way.

No, you and the Quakers have completely misunderstood the Light in John 1:9.

It is not a light that dwells inside all men. The verse does not say that. Jesus as the Light of the world and, like the Sun, his light shines on (not in) everyone, exposing their sin. But not everyone likes the Light and most prefer darkness.

John 3:19-20 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

John is not talking about extra-biblical revelations or an 'Inner Light' guiding us via inner feelings as you think.


You claim not to even hear the voice of the shepherd or have God speak to you inwardly or lead you. i don't need to say anything that you have not already said by your denial of clear scripture and truth. Jesus said his sheep hear his vice and have his word abiding in them and they have the light of life in them and walk in that light.

God speaks to me all the time. Through what scripture plainly says is God's voice - scripture. Not your unbiblical idea of it being an inner feeling.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Rom 1:20-21 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Knowing there is a God is the good first step, a step that Cornelius had no doubt taken, but the next step is hearing the gospel.
No, this verse you brought up actually corrects you and the previous verses and the ones after it in context. Lets read it from the actual Bible first

"17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Here again Paul speaks of the "righteousness of God" revealed. He then goes on to show that this was witnessed in the OT and quotes from the Old Testament.



18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Here we see that all men and ALL ungodliness in the past or present "hold the truth" This truth is Christ Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life. They hold the truth in unrighteounsess. This is similar to those who trample under food the seed and by their sins and iniquity they are crucifying Christ in their hearts. They have that truth to reject though. This truth shines in their hearts but they run from it. This truth is what may be known of God as the next verse shows.



19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Here we see that that truth that they hold is that of God in them. That which may be known of God IN them (yes I use the KJV here and I believe the word "in" is the right word to use) some others seem to either miss the mystery or intentionally hide it here.

But what may be known of God? His power, salvation, life, goodness, righteousness . The righteousness of God seems to be the more pressing issue here. For the righteousness of God has been revealed. Witnessed in the OT. Light is sown to the righteousness and the righteousness of God is in the heart as we read in the OT and new. Paul uses a two fold aspect here as in Romans 10. First speaking of that which may be known of God in them and then he goes in the word in creation that is undersdtood by the inward revelation.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


God does not simply show men that he exist and damn them. He shows them that which may be known of God, His righteousness, His eternal power and Godhead. He also first shows them their sins and that they fall short of Gods intent. They feel the heat of conscience as the conscience bears withness to the Light and truth of God they hold inwardly.

All men have this truth or true Light that lighteth them. This is the faithful witness inwardly and God showing them what may be known of Him.

All infants also have this Light and are in that sense with God until they hate the light and until they have sin revive and they die as Romans 7:9 touches on later.


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


This shows that they knew God at one time. This may refer to infants and young children who come into the world in grace through Christ work and have the treasure in earhen vessels, the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. For they are alive once and die when sin revived as Romans 7:9 touches in.


Or it could also reflect on Adam and Eve who knew God and fell and all from them went into other sins. So Paul says, they knew God. To know God is eternal life and salvation. But then Paul shows their fall and says they "became vain in their imaginations:". This is where they believe not, before their hearts were darkned.

We read in 2 Cor 4 Paul said

"3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them...6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."


Then Paul says , "Their foolish heart was darkened". The heart cannot be darkened unless it was once in light. This shows that Paul is talking about the truth they held, that which may be known of God was in fact the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The seed sown n the heart, the word of God, Christ working in them.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Here we see that they were once with God and knew God and had light and then they were given up by God. Their hearts darkened and became hard and full of lust.



25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."(Romans 1:17-25 KING JAMES VERSION)

Here we see that the "truth" of God should have taught them to worship God. This kind of worship is only for those who are saved in the light and hold the truth in their heart in righteousness. This truth that they should have had is for those who are in the righteousness of God and have God working in them. Those who have Gods righteousness in their heart.


But they changed the truth here. Or exchanged.

So this section shows they were saved and can be saved by that which may be known of God manifest IN them KJV.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The OT saints were saved by them looking forward to the promised messiah as prophesied in the OT who would save them. Cornelius was a Gentile who didn't have the OT, and knew nothing of a messiah.
I simply refer to the OT meaning before the New Testament was began in Jesus death and shed blood and his resurrection.

I refer also to the OT saints, who did not see Jesus Christ yet or the finished work on the cross.
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, you and the Quakers have completely misunderstood the Light in John 1:9.

It is not a light that dwells inside all men. The verse does not say that. Jesus as the Light of the world and, like the Sun, his light shines on (not in) everyone, exposing their sin. But not everyone likes the Light and most prefer darkness.
No you are wrong here again.

The true Light is in all men, but not in them by union as in the new birth. This is a great attainment. But the Light is shining in their hearts. The first thing the Light does is to reprove all sin and expose them. If they are broken and humbled light is sown to the righteous as a seed. That is where they have the seed sown or word of God. That is where Christ works in their hearts as we saw already.

In John 1 we read that the life is the light of men. The light shines in darkness.

Jesus said if the light that is IN you be darkness how great is that darkness

We read of the spirit of man being the candle of the Lord searching all the inward parts of the belly.

I have s many scriptures to prove this. But I have to step out for a bit
 
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swordsman1

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Paul was not giving a re interpretation, but a spiritual one, revealing a mystery. It is only bizzar to those who see naturally. Clearly Paul shows from Deut. 30 that Christ was intended in the verses.

You even use the word "naturally" in your words. This is what you speak from as it is now clear for all to see, you have found yourself out thank the lord, you said;

"it's natural meaning"

But consider

these verses about seeing spiritually and naturally

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:12-14 KJV)

"10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."(Jude 1:10 KJV)

You seriously need to get a good book on hermeneutics or at least read up from a website about the principles of bible interpretation. Trying to find an obscure "spiritual" meaning in every passage is the polar opposite of sound bible interpretation. Which is why you are finding that virtually no commentators agree with your expositions. The plain reading of a passage, as the author intended his audience to understand, is invariably the correct meaning. Scripture was written for believers, even simple uneducated ones, to understand and learn. Not for people to perform theological acrobatics and come up with bizarre interpretations which are alien to the plain reading of the text, but which they think are 'spiritual'.

Here are books which I have, and can recommend:

Klein, Blomberg, & Hubbard - Introduction to Biblical Interpretation.

Grant Osborn - Hermeneutical Spiral

D A Carson - Exegetical Fallacies.

If you can't afford them then at least take a look at the basics on this website:
Lesson 6: Principles of Biblical Interpretation
 
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swordsman1

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I showed you many quotes. They all refer to the mystery, the True Light and seed and the word sown. They also connect this evangelical (preaching) principle to Romans 10 and Moses in Deut 30. This is just a sample of the understanding that was available. So your entire argument against me in this fails as almost every word you have spoken against the truth of Christ speaking in all believers has.

"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)

"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21) the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)

Clement of Alexandria saith (lib. 2, Stromat.), "The divine Word hath cried, calling all, knowing well those that will not obey. And yet, because it is in our power either to obey or not to obey, that none may have a pretext of ignorance it hath made a righteous call and requireth but that which is according to the ability and strength of every one." The selfsame, in his Warning to the Gentiles: "For as" (saith he) "that heavenly ambassador of the Lord, the grace of God that brings salvation, hath appeared unto all, &c. This is the new song, coming, and manifestation of the Word which now shows itself in us, which was in the beginning and was first of all." And again, "Hear, therefore, ye that are afar off; hear ye who are near; the Word is hid from none, the Light is common to all and shineth to all. There is no darkness in the Word; let us hasten to salvation, to the new birth, that we, being many, may be gathered unto the one alone love." Ibid., he saith that "There is infused into all, but principally into those that are trained up in doctrine, a certain divine influence,." And again he speaketh concerning "the innate witness, worthy of belief, which of itself doth plainly choose that which is most honest." And again he saith, "That it is not impossible to come unto the Truth and lay hold of it, seeing it is most near to us, in our own houses, as the most wise Moses declareth, living in three parts of us: viz., in our hands, in our mouth, and in our heart. This," saith he, "is a most true badge of the Truth, which is also fulfilled in three things, namely in counsel, in action, in speaking." And again he saith also unto the unbelieving nations, "Receive Christ, receive Light, receive sight to the end thou mayest rightly know both God and man. The Word that hath enlightened us is more pleasant than gold, and the stone of great value." And again he saith, "Let us receive the Light that we may receive God; let us receive the Light that we may be the scholars of the Lord." And again he saith to those infidel nations, "The heavenly Spirit helpeth thee; resist and flee pleasure." Again (lib. Strom. 5) he saith, "God forbid that man be not a partaker of divine acquaintance, who in Genesis is said to be a partaker of inspiration." And (Paed. lib,. 1, cap. 3), "There is," saith he, "some lovely and some desirable thing in man which is called the in-breathing of God,." The same man (lib. Strom. 10) directeth men unto the Light and Water in themselves, who have the eye of the soul darkened or dimmed through evil upbringing and learning: let them enter in unto their own domestic Light, or unto the Light which is in their own house, unto the Truth which manifests accurately and clearly these things that have been written.


Justin Martyr, in his first apology, saith, "that the Word which was and is, is in all; even that very same Word which, through the prophets, foretold things to come."


The writer of the Call of all Nations, saith (lib. i, cap. 2), "We believe according to the same (viz. Scripture), and most religiously confess, that God was never wanting in care to the generality of men; who although he did lead by particular lessons, a people gathered to himself unto godliness, yet he withdrew from no nation of men the gifts of his own goodness, that they might be convinced that they had received the words of the prophets, and legal commands in services and testimonies of the first principles." Cap. 7, he saith, "That he believes that the help of grace hath been wholly withdrawn from no man." Lib. 2, cap. l, "Because, albeit salvation is far from sinners, yet there is nothing void of the presence and virtue of his salvation." Cap. 2, "But seeing none of that people over whom was set both the doctrines, were justified but through Grace by the Spirit of faith, who can question, but that they, who of whatsoever nation, in whatsoever times, could please God, were ordered by the Spirit of the Grace of God: which albeit in fore-time it was more sparing and hid, yet denied itself to no ages, being in virtue one, in quantity different, in counsel unchangeable, in operation multifarious."

Clement of Alexandria saith (Apol. ii., Strom. lib. i.), that "this wisdom or philosophy was necessary to the Gentiles, and was their schoolmaster to lead them unto Christ, by which of old the Greeks were justified."


"Nor do I think," saith Augustine, in his book of the City of God, lib. 18, cap. 47, "that the Jews dare affirm that none belonged unto God but the Israelites." Upon which place Ludovicus Vives saith, that "thus the Gentiles, not having a law, were a law unto themselves; and the light of so living is the gift of God, and proceeds from the Son; of whom it is written that he enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Augustine also testifies in his Confessions (lib. 7, cap. 9), that "he had read in the writings of the Platonists, though not in the very same words, yet that which by many and multiplied reasons did persuade, that 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, this was in the beginning with God, by which all things were made, and without which nothing was made that was made: in him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men: and the Light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And, albeit the soul gives testimony concerning the Light, yet it is not the Light, but the Word of God; for God is the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world'"; and so repeats to verse 14 of John 1, adding, "These things have I there read."

Yea, there is a book translated out of the Arabic, which gives an account of one Hai Eben Yokdan, who, without converse of man, living in an island alone, attained to such a profound knowledge of God, as to have immediate converse with him, and to affirm, "That the best and most certain knowledge of God, is not that which is attained by premises premised, and conclusions deduced, but that which is enjoyed by conjunction of the mind of man with the supreme intellect, after the mind is purified from its corruptions, and is separated from all bodily images, and is gathered into a profound

Seeing then it is by this inward Gift, Grace, and Light, that both those, that have the Gospel preached unto them, come to have Jesus brought forth in them, and to have the saving and sanctified use of all outward helps and advantages; and also by this same Light, that all may come to be saved; and that God calls, invites, and strives with all, in a day, and saveth many, to whom he hath not seen meet to convey this outward knowledge; therefore we, having the experience of the inward and powerful work of this Light in our hearts, even Jesus revealed in us, cannot cease to proclaim the day of the Lord, that it is arisen in it, crying out with the woman of Samaria; "Come and see one, that hath told me all that ever I have done: Is not this the Christ?" That others may come and feel the same in themselves, and may know, that little small thing that reproves them in their hearts, however they have despised it and neglected it, is nothing less than the Gospel preached in them; "Christ, the wisdom and power of God," being in and by that Seed seeking to save their souls.

Of this Light therefore Augustine speaks in his Confessions (lib. 11, cap. 9): "In this beginning, O God! thou madest the heavens and the earth, in thy Word, in thy Son, in thy virtue, in thy wisdom, wonderfully saying, and wonderfully doing. Who shall comprehend it? Who shall declare it? What is that which shineth in unto me, and smites my heart without hurt, at which I both tremble, and am inflamed? I tremble, in so far as I am unlike unto it; and I am inflamed in so far as I am like unto it? It is Wisdom, which shineth in unto me and dispelleth my cloud, which had again covered me, after I was departed from that darkness and 11 of my punishments." And again he saith (lib. x., cap. 27), "It is too late that I have loved thee, O thou beautifulness, so ancient, and so new, late have I loved thee, and behold thou wast within, and I was without, and there was seeking thee! thou didst call, thou didst cry, thou didst break my deafness, thou glancedst, thou didst shine, thou chasedst away my darkness."

Of this also our countryman, George Buchanan, speaketh thus in his book, De Jure Regni apud Scotos: "Truly I understand no other thing at present, than that Light, which is divinely infused into our souls; for when God formed man, he not only gave him eyes to his body, by which he might shun those things that are hurtful to him, and follow those things that are profitable. But also hath set before his mind, as it were, a certain Light, by which he may discern things that are vile from things that are honest. Some call this power nature, others the law of nature; I truly judge it to be divine, and am persuaded that nature and wisdom never say different things. Moreover God hath given us a compend of the law, which in few words comprehends the whole: to wit, that we should love him from our hearts, and our neighbours as ourselves. And of this law all the books of the Holy Scriptures, which pertain to the forming of manners, contain no other but an explication."

This is that universal, evangelical principle in and by which this salvation of Christ is exhibited to all men, both Jew and Gentile, Scythian and Barbarian, of whatsoever country or kindred he be. And therefore God hath raised up unto himself, in this our age, faithful witnesses and evangelists to preach again his everlasting Gospel, and to direct all, as well the high professors, who boast of the Law, and the Scriptures, and the outward knowledge of Christ, as the infidels and heathens that know not him that way, that they may all come to mind the Light in them, and know Christ in them, "the Just One, whom they have so long killed and made merry over, and he hath not resisted" (James 5:6), and give up their sins, iniquities, false faith, professions, and outside righteousness, to be crucified by the power of his cross in them, so as they may know Christ within to be the "hope of glory," and may come to walk in his Light and be saved, who is that "true Light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

You are just regurgitating old posts, which I have previously dealt with. All those quotes are from the works of the Quaker Robert Barclay. Even with his bizarre views, he gives no commentary on Romans 10 that agrees your interpretation, especially your crazy ideas about v13-14, 18.
 
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swordsman1

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Yes it does. To let the peace of God rule or govern in our hearts is when we cease from our own works and effort and trying to rule our own life. This implies strongly as waiting on the Lord to renew our strength.

It says nothing of the sort. Peace means peace ie not being in conflict. It has nothing to do with waiting. Least of all waiting for an inner extra-biblical revelation.

And then we are to Let the word of Christ dwell in us richly and from this to teach and admonish one another ...This again shows that it is from Christ in us that we edify eachother, for he works effectually in us to make increase of the body giving to every man a measure of grace and power and all things. This again implies strongly that we are not to rush ahead in our own ways and carnal natural minds.

Again. You are reading your own erroneous ideas into the verse. That is the fallacy of eisegesis. The 'word of Christ' is scripture, not Christ in us. We are to teach and admonish each other from scripture, not from extra-biblical revelations we receive via our feelings. And again absolutely nothing about waiting in that verse.

Looks like I'm going to have to dig out another 20+ commentaries on these verses as well to prove how utterly wrong and isolated you are.


This is the way it should read. Again you are attacking THE bible. It is not helpful to your case to do so. We see more of this waiting in different forms in the same chapter. Paul says

"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith....6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, [which all must wait upon the Lord for for God gives gifts severally as he wills and in His time, not in ours]. whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"(Romans 12:3,6 KJV)

How can it be if the word 'wait' does not even appear in the original Greek even the textus receptus. Maybe you think the KJV, with it's errors, is the source of inspired truth, rather than the words the apostles actually wrote. I don't.

It seems that whenever you don't like something I show you and the scripture clearly exposes your error, you simply run to some text or commentator who you think agrees with you.

I never consulted a commentary here because your error was so easy to spot. But for other difficult passages sure I stand on the shoulders of theological giants, not on own my feeble and erroneous understanding as you do.

I use THE bible, it says to wait upon ministry and it is there. That is good enough. You will need to argue with God why he had the translators put it in there. It make perfect sense structurally in the context.

It may say it in the KJV. But that is not THE bible. It is a translation of THE bible by fallible humans. THE bible, the original Greek, does not have the word 'wait', not even in the manuscripts the KJV translators used. They added it themselves.

You saw the word "wait" there and you were troubled, so you rushed in a frantic frenzy to find some variant reading. I don't care if a thousand other translations do not have the word in it, it is there.

No I didn't I looked at an interlinear and saw the word wasn't there. I then checked the textus receptus text and the word wasn't there either. The KJV is wrong and so are you.
 
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swordsman1

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You have proved nothing of the sort and I deny your reasoning and arguments with sound scripture

I have already quoted every verse in scripture that mentions God's metaphorical voice. There are about 20 of them if I remember. Shall I post them again? Every one is a reference to scripture. Not one was an inner feeling or an extra-biblical revelation. And you haven't been able to refute that fact.

here's a few to correct you here.

Nonsense. The verses you quote don't correct me in the slightest.

2 Corinthians 13:3
"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."

Christ spoke in apostles, but in us. "mighty in you" does not mean "speak to you"

Romans 8:16
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

The Spirit bearest witness WITH our spirit. So there is no "speaking" IN us or TO us involved.

John 15:4
"Abide in me, and
I in you."

Nothing about God voice there.

Hebrews 3:15
"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

That verse says nothing about extra-biblical revelations. People can harden their hearts to God's words in scripture.
 
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swordsman1

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No, I believe the other translations corrupt the text and it seems they seek to hide this mystery.

There is no corruption of texts. The Greek wording is the same in TR as it is in the earlier Greek manuscripts. It is purely something that the KJV has added, something that is not in the TR.
 
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swordsman1

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You totally miss it.

"Preacher" or "the one who preaches", doesn't change anything I was saying. God is the divine preacher or witnesses, shines, reveals, speaks preaches to men inwardly and always has. He does this in many ways, but Paul points out that Christ was there all along working in men. In their hearts. Not that all received him in their hearts, but he was there shining nevertheless.

But Paul was asking questions, assuming the logical deduction from his words that all can call upon the name of the Lord. He already showed that the word in Christ word speaking and working in men by his reference to Deut. He already said that the word is nigh or near all in their hearts and mouths. Now he goes further and shows that God not only witnesses, or preaches in men's hearts but also in the prophets or preachers he sends and in creation (Psalm 19) . He shows that the word of God came to the prophets and preachers. This is how they were sent. No man can preach or be a preacher unless God sends him and leads him by His word. Where do you think the word of God came to the prophets of old? it didn't drop down as a finished book but God worrled in them. The Spirit is only understood in spirit.

and the word is "preacher" in many translations beside the KJV.

I have already explained your errors in your understand of Romans 10. I'm not going to repeat myself yet again. I suggest you go back and read it, together with all the commentaries on those verses I have posted.
 
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swordsman1

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No, Peter said he "perceived" of a truth, it was a revelation from God that he was given. He could discern by faith and God showed him. Never the less these were the marks of believers as Peter said and as John said. I speak of true fear of God and true working righteousness.God works in all believers to make them perfect unto every good work. And yes God was in the OT saints as many scriptures can show and working in them and they were born again and had the Spirit of Christ in them and the Father.

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

And Peter speaks the truth when he tells us exactly when Cornelius was saved. It wasn't before he heard the gospel.

Acts 11:14 "And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’"
 
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swordsman1

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Yes, "any man" extends to all Gentiles who God cleanses. But in this case it was directly connected to Cornelius. The context is directly connected to Peter eating in a Gentiles house ( Cornelius)

read again the singular and plural stresses

"25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."(Acts 10:25-28 KJV)

And as far as others as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

( I do not refer to some who make this a fatalism of sorts verse).

Peter clearly said "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." So he is saying that it is not just Cornelius who is now clean but ANY Gentile. If you are saying this cleansing is cleansing from sin, then all gentiles are saved.
 
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swordsman1

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The true Light is in all men, but not in them by union as in the new birth. This is a great attainment. But the Light is shining in their hearts.

Where in John 1:9 does it say the True Light shines "in" all men? It doesn't. It says the true Light who shines on every man or "lighteth" (KJV). The word "in" is not there. It is eisegetically added by you and the Quakers.

The forst thing the Light does is to reprove all sin and expose them.

Yes, that is correct. The light of Christ exposes sin.

If they are broken and humbled light is sown to the righteous as a seed.

No, the light is not sown as a seed. The word of God, scripture, is the seed sown.

In John 1 we read that the life is the light of men. The light shines in darkness.

Same light as above.

Jesus said if the light that is IN you be darkness how great is that darkness

The light Jesus was referring to in this verse is not Himself. How can Christ be darkness? Read the context. Jesus is talking about light entering the eyes and filling the body. He is speaking metaphorically. He is saying if you focus on God's word and other spiritual truths your life will be enlightened. Focus on worldly things instead, your will be life filled with darkness.

Mat 6:22-23 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
 
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LoveofTruth

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You seriously need to get a good book on hermeneutics or at least read up from a website about the principles of bible interpretation. Trying to find an obscure "spiritual" meaning in every passage is the polar opposite of sound bible interpretation. Which is why you are finding that virtually no commentators agree with your expositions.
You seriously need to be still and learn from the Spirit of God and not rush to men’s natural reasonings and wisdom with excellency of speech.

And yes, there are writers of the past and others who do agree with things I have said.

And unlike what you said here I compare spiritual things with spiritual. No man knows the things of God but by the Spirit. The anointing teaches us all things , you have no need that any “man” shall teach you.

The bible is a hidden book to any who do not seek the Spiritual understanding in all things as we read in scripture.

I also am sure I would disagree with the few commentators you try to bring for your reasonings in areas of body ministry as well and the fact that I do not believe in “man made church buildings” or a “one man pastor ministry” over others, but instead a plurality of elders and the entire body edifying each other.

I’m sure I would disagree with many of the men you bring about the gifts of the Spirit and about falling from grace etc.yet scripture corrects many commentators in these matters. If any men do not agree with the truth and that truth that is also reflected in scripture and shown, It doesn’t matter how many men you bring. I follow the Lord and seek to be led by the Spirit and the anointing that teaches all things not natural human reasonings about spiritual matters.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Where in John 1:9 does it say the True Light shines "in" all men? It doesn't. It says the true Light who shines on every man or "lighteth" (KJV). The word "in" is not there. It is eisegetically added by you and the Quakers.

The Light in unbelievers.

First of all, the True Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This Light is God for the word Light in John 1 connects from the first verse speaking about the Word of God which is Him (God), which is the life and light of men. Where do we suppose the light shines if not in men's hearts. When I say in men's hearts I do not mean that the light or seed or word is planted in their hearts and that they have received him yet. But in their hearts in the sense of shining in or upon their hearts. This is similar like when God created the Earth and the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep, but the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....3 All things were made by him;...4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(John 1:1,3,4,5,9 KJV)

Those who are not yet saved have this work of the law written in their hearts. The heart can still be hardened and in unbelief. But the light is there to reprove them. This is also referred to as the seed or word of God . The word is in the heart (Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV). It is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart. This light is the treasure in earthen vessels (2 Cor 4 KJV), the faithful witness inwardly that shines. It shines in their inward part and this is where God searches men's hearts.

We also read in Acts 17 where Paul told the men on the hill that God is not far from every one of us and they can feel after him and find him. Jesus said men can find God when they seek him with all their heart mind soul and strength. This kind of finding is salvation. But God is the one who first draws men by His light working in their hearts. If they come to that Light they are coming to God.

This light shines in the darkness. men's state is darkness without Christ light. But he shines there never the less. The light exposes their sin and works in their heart. Their heart can be darkened even if they had the light of life shine in them.

some verses to consider about the inward aspect of the Light to all.

"18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret:[here we see where the father is spoken of, he is in secret, this is the secret part of men's hearts he dwells and works]

and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly...21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.[Jesus tells us that the secret place is the heart]


22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, [referring to the focus on God alone the inward vision to see spiritually Jesus said that except a man be born again he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. He also said to his disciples at one time but your eyes see, to those who are without (the kingdom) they are blind. When Jesus said that those who see may not see he is talking about spiritual vision and inward seeing. As believers we look on the things that are not seen]

thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness,[this shows where the light is it is in thee. But if they do not receive him in their hearts, if they are not planted together with him and risen with him, then they are in darkness and that light will not give them the light of life. They will not have light sown (as a seed to their heart Psalm 97:11 KJV)] how great is that darkness!"(Matthew 6:18, 21-23 KJV)


It is not that the light is darkness for the light shines in the darness. But the darness is the state of men in unbelief. They have not been enlightened with the light of the living yet.

We read of this light in many places

"20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;...23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?"(Job 3:20,23 KJV)

Proverbs 13:9
The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out."


Job 18:5
Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine."


Proverbs 20:27
"The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly."


The seed is also sown in the hearts of ALL, though it doesnt take root in some and the devil takes it away. Notice where it is sown.

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."(Luke 8:11,12 KJV).

This word is quick, alive and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. This is where the secrets of men is and where God desires truth in the inward part. There is no creature that is not seen by the word of God shining and convicting them all and giving life to those who believe in the light who become the children of light. We see the broad reach of this word sown in the hearts of all in many places here is one

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."(Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV)

The word "manifest" is important here and connects to the light again as we see


Ephesians 5:13
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

Jesus said the same thing here

"19 And this is the condemnation, [this is the reason all men since Adam are condened]

that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,[here we see the broad scope of the words here, when Jesus says EVERYONE THAT DOETH EVIL', This "everyone includes all men since the beginning who have done evil. So that means that they all had light to reject or receive. This is when they are condemned, when they hate the light. They can also come to the light "ALL MEN", since the beginning. This light is makes all things manifest, whether they are in God or in darkness and unbelief."] neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."[the worked "IN GOD" part is interesting, showong that God works in them and they in God.](John 3:19-21 KJV)

we see this light again spoken of in the two camps, those who are in ubelief who reject it and those who receive the light of Chris.

"3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."(2 Corinthians 4:36,7 KJV) Here we see that the light shone in the heart and is called a treasure "in" earthen vessels. This "treasure" is the "free gift" that came upon all men (Romans 5). This "treasure" is the treasure hid in the heart the seed or word of God, Christ close to them the word nigh, or near them all. One day when God shall judge the secrets of men they will see how close God was to every one of them and how he reached out to them all day long and how he reproved them of every sin and every action. How he did shine to call them unto himself but they would not and they will see how the devil blinded their minds and hearts and how they hardened their hearts and their foolish hearts became darkened.

continued...
 
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LoveofTruth

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Where in John 1:9 does it say the True Light shines "in" all men? It doesn't. It says the true Light who shines on every man or "lighteth" (KJV). The word "in" is not there. It is eisegetically added by you and the Quakers.
continued...

The Light in believers

But as Far as believers the Light is in them in a salvation way and this light shines in the heart.
We see clearly that the Light is in all believers for we see by scripture who the Light is and where He is

1 John 1:5
"...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."


John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."


Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you...."


2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."


Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."


1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:..."


2 Cor 4:4-6 KJV)
"...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."


Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness."


Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"


Proverbs 20:27
"The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly."


Job 29:3
"When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;


Psalm 36:9
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light."


Psalm 56:13
"For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?"


1 John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


Ephesians 5:8
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:"


Romans 13:12
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."


Psalm 43:3
"O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles."


John 12:36
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."


Psalm 97:11
"Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart."


Psalm 89:15
"Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance."


Isaiah 2:5
"O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."


Matthew 5:16
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

also consider this section with these verses


"33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle,


Proverbs 20:27
"The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly."


Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness."


"putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. 34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. 35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. 36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light."(Luke 11:33-35 KJV)
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, the light is not sown as a seed. The word of God, scripture, is the seed sown.

Psalm 97:11

"Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart."


the word "sown" means - plant, conceive, seed...

We are also "planted" together with him as scripture shows

Romans 6:5 KJV

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


and a mystery for those who have ears to hear

John 12:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

Hosea 10:12 KJV
"Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you."

Jeremiah 4;3,4 KJV
3 For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Nothing about God voice there.
I quoted John 15:5

John 15:4
"Abide in me, and
I in you."

and we know that if Jesus Christ is in us he speaks in believers

2 Corinthians 13:3
Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."


and so in John 15:4 we read of Jesus being in us and speaking his word and this is also inward as well for without him we can do nothing. That would include utterance, ministry, preaching, revelation etc..

"7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you...11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."

Some saw Jesus speak outwardly and read scriptures but did not have His word abiding in them. So simply hearing him audibly and reading scripture did not mean they heard his voice or had his word in them. He that is of God heareth Gods words.

John 8:43
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."


John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."


John 10:27
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


John 10:27

"14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Matthew 13:14-16 KJV
"14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

Only those who are born again and have God dwelling in them can hear God's words. as scripture shows. And yes men can have Gd dwelling in them since the beginning and men were saved, born again and had God dwelling in them since the beginning as scripture clearly shows.

1 John 4:15
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."


1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."
 
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LoveofTruth

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I have already explained your errors in your understand of Romans 10. I'm not going to repeat myself yet again. I suggest you go back and read it, together with all the commentaries on those verses I have posted.
My comments in Romans 10 connected to Deut 30 and Psalms 19 are clear to the unbiased reader go back and read them again and consider them seeking the Spirit of God to show you all things. Only in the anointing can we understand all things. The anointing teaches us all things and we need not that any "man" teach us. By the word "any man" there, I understand the "natural man". In Christ as the head working in the body we are part of that "new man" and we have Jesus Christ speaking and working in us and effectually in every part. And we have the Father and the Holy Ghost working in us as well.

This is the "rule" as we live in the new creation "In Christ" and are led by the Spirit. This is my original presentation in the beginning of this post



THE PRIMARY RULE OF FAITH AND PRACTICE


"15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. ...18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.


 
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