Approaches to Eschatology

[BABerean2]

Which is why I am a Covenant pre Mil person at the present time, as do not see the Rapture as distinct from the second coming event, but still do see a literal Kingdom Jesus will set up here at His returning!

If you are "preMil", how do you explain the judgement of the sheep and goats at His return in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Because Christ returns in both Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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[Biblewriter]

"this generation" is only two words

hard to mis-interpret two words

You have managed to do it. The key word here is THIS, which simply means whatever is being referred to. He had just referred to those who would see all these things begin to come to pass. THAT was the generation He was referring to. You can reject this conclusion. But you are absolutely unable to prove what you are saying.

 

[Erik Nelson]

You have managed to do it. The key word here is THIS, which simply means whatever is being referred to. He had just referred to those who would see all these things begin to come to pass. THAT was the generation He was referring to. You can reject this conclusion. But you are absolutely unable to prove what you are saying.

The history and archaeology of the Jewish war and the destruction of the physical temple in 70. AD proves the point already.

As for grammar "this generation" means "this generation"

If we refuse to acknowledge. The rules of grammar and linguistics. Then all the sounds coming out of our mouths are. Just so much gibberish and Babel.

 

[jgr]

You have managed to do it. The key word here is THIS, which simply means whatever is being referred to. He had just referred to those who would see all these things begin to come to pass. THAT was the generation He was referring to. You can reject this conclusion. But you are absolutely unable to prove what you are saying.

All of the following, from Matthew, refer to the generation of those to whom Christ was speaking.


Matthew 11:16
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Biblewriter]

The idea being pressed by many here, that certain words indicating nearness must be interpreted on a human time scale, is interesting but absolutely unprovable. But when these people press these ideas, they neglect the fact that there are a very large number of explicitly stated prophecies, couched in clear, plain language, rather that in mysterious symbols, that describe events that unquestionably have still not taken place, even now, more that 2000 years after they were prophesied.

If we are to believe all of the Bible, as most people here claim to believe, you cannot just ignore these very many prophecies which are so clearly stated.

No system of eschatological interpretation can possibly be correct unless it makes allowance for all of the explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible.

The prophecies in the Revelation are a rich source for many imaginations. For most of them are couched in symbolic language of whose meaning no one can be absolutely certain. But about a third of the entire Bible is prophecy. (I say this because I include the Psalms as prophecy, as is so very clearly stated in numerous New Testament passages.) And well over half of that is devoted to the second coming of the great promised Messiah, or to the events leading up to that coming.

But sadly, most people who imagine themselves to be students of prophecy are only vaguely familiar with most of what these very many prophecies say. And if they were familiar with them, they would know that their theories could not even possibly be correct.

 

[Biblewriter]

The history and archaeology of the Jewish war and the destruction of the physical temple in 70. AD proves the point already.

As for grammar "this generation" means "this generation"

If we refuse to acknowledge. The rules of grammar and linguistics. Then all the sounds coming out of our mouths are. Just so much gibberish and Babel.

You are the one who is refusing to acknowledge the rules of grammar and linguistics. And your claim that the history and archeology of the Jewish war proves your point is absolutely incorrect.

The hard fact is that no more than about 10% to 15% of the details contained in the various prophecies correspond with the actual details contained in most of the historical accounts that Preterists claim describe their fulfillments. And many prophecies in the Bible have absolutely zero parallel in any historical account whatsoever.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The idea being pressed by many here, that certain words indicating nearness must be interpreted on a human time scale, is interesting but absolutely unprovable. But when these people press these ideas, they neglect the fact that there are a very large number of explicitly stated prophecies, couched in clear, plain language, rather that in mysterious symbols, that describe events that unquestionably have still not taken place, even now, more that 2000 years after they were prophesied.

If we are to believe all of the Bible, as most people here claim to believe, you cannot just ignore these very many prophecies which are so clearly stated.

No system of eschatological interpretation can possibly be correct unless it makes allowance for all of the explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible.

The prophecies in the Revelation are a rich source for many imaginations. For most of them are couched in symbolic language of whose meaning no one can be absolutely certain. But about a third of the entire Bible is prophecy. (I say this because I include the Psalms as prophecy, as is so very clearly stated in numerous New Testament passages.) And well over half of that is devoted to the second coming of the great promised Messiah, or to the events leading up to that coming.

But sadly, most people who imagine themselves to be students of prophecy are only vaguely familiar with most of what these very many prophecies say. And if they were familiar with them, they would know that their theories could not even possibly be correct.

Yes, everything AFTER Matthew 24:35. Refers to the future, Physical Second coming of Christ at the end of earth time at final judgment.

TEMPLE DESTRUCTION AND FINAL JUDGMENT (1)

the [Olivet] Discourse opens with a prophecy of judgment against the Temple in AD 70, which ends the old covenant era, but then shifts to the Final Judgment of the world, which ends the new covenant era (and history itself).

 

[Biblewriter]

All of the following, from Matthew, refer to the generation of those to whom Christ was speaking.


Matthew 11:16
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

This is absolutely correct, and 100% irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

[Erik Nelson]

You are the one who is refusing to acknowledge the rules of grammar and linguistics. And your claim that the history and archeology of the Jewish war proves your point is absolutely incorrect.

The hard fact is that no more than about 10% to 15% of the details contained in the various prophecies correspond with the actual details contained in most of the historical accounts that Preterists claim describe their fulfillments. And many prophecies in the Bible have absolutely zero parallel in any historical account whatsoever.

The Jewish war lasted 7 years. 3.5 years into the conflict. Jerusalem was sacked the physical temple was destroyed. And. The Pagan Emperor Titus. And the Romans carried out Pagan rituals on the Temple Mount.

 

[jgr]

This is absolutely correct, and 100% irrelevant to the current discussion.

Matthew is irrelevant to Matthew?

 

[Erik Nelson]

This is absolutely correct, and 100% irrelevant to the current discussion.

So, according to you. Jesus saying the exact same thing. The exact same words. Can mean multiple things?

If so, then maybe no can mean yes. And yes, can mean no so that when you say no. "This generation" doesn't mean "this generation" in Matthew 24, you're actually saying yes, it did, and we're all in agreement because no means yes And yes, means no, and when you say no you mean yes?

 

[Biblewriter]

So, according to you. Jesus saying the exact same thing. The exact same words. Can mean multiple things?

If so, then maybe no can mean yes. And yes, can mean no so that when you say no. "This generation" doesn't mean "this generation" in Matthew 24, you're actually saying yes, it did, and we're all in agreement because no means yes And yes, means no, and when you say no you mean yes?

Two words that are EXACTLY THE SAME can indeed mean totally different things in different situations.

A man ran down the street.
On the street, his battery ran down.

But as this has degenerated into childish argument, I am bowing out.

 

[jgr]

Two words that are EXACTLY THE SAME can indeed mean totally different things in different situations.

A man ran down the street.
On the street, his battery ran down.

Not when they're being used by the same author, and not unless that author is using them inconsistently.

There's no reason to believe that Matthew is using "this generation" inconsistently.

 

[Biblewriter]

Not when they're being used by the same author, and not unless that author is using them inconsistently.

There's no reason to believe that Matthew is using "this generation" inconsistently.

There is actually very string reason for believing that our Lord was using these same two words to mean two different generations.

And that reason is that if He was not referring to two different generations, many of the other ststements inspired by the same Holy Spirit would be inconsistent.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, everything AFTER Matthew 24:35. Refers to the future, Physical Second coming of Christ at the end of earth time at final judgment.

TEMPLE DESTRUCTION AND FINAL JUDGMENT (1)

the [Olivet] Discourse opens with a prophecy of judgment against the Temple in AD 70, which ends the old covenant era, but then shifts to the Final Judgment of the world, which ends the new covenant era (and history itself).

I will have to disagree with that.

Just as there is no 2000yr gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, so also there is no 2000yr gap in Matthew 24 or the whole Olivet Discourse.

The end/consummation of the OC Age ended in 70ad.......

Please look at my Jerusalem/Temple discourse harmonization.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `be telling to us! when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-end/sunteleiaV <4930> of the [OC Temple]Age?'
27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:23
and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end,

1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh<1448>;
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers

James 5:8
be ye patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>;


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[Douggg]

There is actually very string reason for believing that our Lord was using these same two words to mean two different generations.

And that reason is that if He was not referring to two different generations, many of the other ststements inspired by the same Holy Spirit would be inconsistent.

Everyone should read Ezekiel 39 to know that Jesus meant the present (our) generation. The Gog/Magog nations are armed and convening, right now. Russia, Turkey, Iran, Syria.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is the fulfillment of Jesus's second coming.

Jesus Himself is speaking in those verses, right after he executes judgment on them gathered to make war on him in Ezekiel 39:17-20. 7 years after God destroys Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4.

Ezekiel 39.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[Douggg]

Everyone should read Ezekiel 39 to know that Jesus meant the present (our) generation. The Gog/Magog nations are armed and convening, right now. Russia, Turkey, Iran, Syria.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is the fulfillment of Jesus's second coming.

Jesus Himself is speaking in those verses, right after he executes judgment on them gathered to make war on him in Ezekiel 39:17-20. 7 years after God destroys Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4.

Ezekiel 39.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[jgr]

There is actually very string reason for believing that our Lord was using these same two words to mean two different generations.

And that reason is that if He was not referring to two different generations, many of the other ststements inspired by the same Holy Spirit would be inconsistent.

Such as?

If He meant a future generation, He could easily have used alternative terminology to distinguish it.

But He didn't.

 

[keras]

There is actually very string reason for believing that our Lord was using these same two words to mean two different generations.

And that reason is that if He was not referring to two different generations, many of the other ststements inspired by the same Holy Spirit would be inconsistent.

Thank you James for correct exegesis.
It seems to me that those who have no desire to face the end times events, are the ones who must reject the truth of the generation that sees all these things, being OUR generation.
We DO have a future and the Lord has revealed it to us. Time is short now, as we see from the situation in all of the holy Land area, God won't allow it to continue much longer.

Isaiah 42:14-15 Long have I restrained Myself
I kept silence and held Myself in check. I shall lay waste to mountain and hill, dry up the trees and fields. I shall dry up the rivers and empty the lakes.

The Lord is about to act once again in His creation – The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath - the next prophesied, worldwide event. The first of a series of judgements and punishments to His enemies and blessings to His faithful Christian people, Isaiah 44:1-3, leading to the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus.

Isaiah 42:11-17 The Lord will go forth as a warrior; He will shout His battle cry and will triumph over His enemies.

I will guide the blind along unfamiliar paths and will make the way smooth for them. But those who do not trust Me, they will be put to shame.

Isaiah 42:10-12 Sing a new song to the Lord – throughout the world, you on the seas and you that inhabit the coasts and islands. Let all people give glory to the Lord!

This is the gathering and settling of His people into all of the holy Land.

Isaiah 42:18-20 Hear now: you deaf people, you My servants that are blind: look and see! Who is so blind as My servants? So deaf as the messengers that I send? You have seen much, but perceived little. Your ears are open but you hear nothing.

The Lord’s servants: every faithful Christian, all those who love Him and obey His Laws, fail to see or listen to the truths that are prophesied about these end times.

Why is this?

Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourselves, you will stay confused. For the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor, the prophetic vision of it all has become like the words in a sealed book.

How can we really understand what the prophets are telling us?

2 Peter 1:19 We have the word of the prophets, you do well to pay attention to it, as a light shining in a dark place and when the day dawns, it will illuminate your minds.

Isaiah 29:22-24 This is no time for Jacob to be afraid, when they see what I will do for them, they will regard their God with awe. The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction.

Jacob/Israel and Joseph; now refer to every faithful Christian person. Galatians 3:26-29

So, it may not be until after the Lord has acted against His enemies, that His people will finally realize and understand His plans and purposes for them. Psalms 60:1-5


Zechariah 10:6-12 I shall give triumph and victory to Judah and Joseph and in My compassion, I shall restore them as though I had never cast them off. My people will see and be glad, for I will deliver them. I will whistle to call them in and they will be as many as they used to be. Though dispersed among the nations and yet in far off lands, they will remember Me. I shall bring them home from wherever they are and will lead them into all the holy Land, until there is no more room. Their strength will be in God, they will march proudly in His Name. Ref: REB, some verses abridged

The Lord’s Christian people are gathered and settled into their own Land, after He judges and punishes His enemies. Jeremiah 12:14-17, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 11:11-12
Unfortunately these events will come as a surprise to the secular world and to many Bible believers. Why should you be shocked and taken unawares by them?

 

[Erik Nelson]

I will have to disagree with that.

Just as there is no 2000yr gap in Daniel's 70 weeks, so also there is no 2000yr gap in Matthew 24 or the whole Olivet Discourse.

The end/consummation of the OC Age ended in 70ad.......

Please look at my Jerusalem/Temple discourse harmonization.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `be telling to us! when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full-end/sunteleiaV <4930> of the [OC Temple]Age?'
27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:23
and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ,
afterwards those who are the Christ’s in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end,

1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh<1448>;
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers

James 5:8
be ye patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>;


.

Matthew 24:30 = Matthew 25:31
"son of man coming in glory"

The first reference comes from the first part of the Olivet Discourse, which appears to be talking about the 70. AD judgment of Jerusalem.

Yet the second verse. Comes from the second part of the Olivet Discourse, which is obviously talking about final judgment. And eternity. Matthew 25:46

So it does appear like the Olivet discourse. is? United. In. Discussing a single coming event. Seemingly associated with both the destruction of the temple. And. Final judgment.

Very confusing. The physical temple was destroyed in 70ad But it's hard to identify the final judgment unto. Eternal. Judgment. In the same event.