Lazarus Short

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No, my friend. Even the devil will be destroyed.

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”
Logic dictates that if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, then it makes sense that all the previous enemies of God will be destroyed, too (like the devil and his minions and the wicked).

[I trimmed my quote of Jason's post for clarity.]

Logic dictates that I ask this question: If there is going to a long list of those who are annihilated, beginning with the devil, followed by HUGE numbers of wicked angels and men...then how is it that the entity known as "Death" is really destroyed???

Everyone on the list is still dead, even if they have been annihilated and everyone has forgotten them.

By logic, there is no way around this insoluble problem...unless ALL are saved, and I won't speculate on the final fate of the devil.

When you're dead, you're dead - we all know that. But when you're annihilated, you're still dead, even though some people's logic replaces "dead" with "annihilated" and assume the substitution solves the problem. It does not.
 
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Pneuma3

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I haven’t heard anyone mention hell yet (until you) and every time time it is mentioned people wig out. My entire point in this discussion has been that we don’t know for certain if repentance after death is a possibility. Therefore it is a dangerous philosophy to spread.

The only thing dangerous in this tread is those doctrines that teach other then what we are commanded to teach, which is Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.
well I believe we are all under the sentence of death right now and that repentance happens while in death and not afterwords. For if one is walking in Resurrection life one has nothing to repent of.
 
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ClementofA

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This contradicts everything that has been said in this thread from the universalists.

If it does, so what? Do those who believe in endless tortures (Calvinists, Arminians, Muslims, Mormons, Pharisees, the KKK) agree about everything? Do those who believe in endless annihilation agree in everything? It's what Scripture says that is truth.
 
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[I trimmed my quote of Jason's post for clarity.]

Logic dictates that I ask this question: If there is going to a long list of those who are annihilated, beginning with the devil, followed by HUGE numbers of wicked angels and men...then how is it that the entity known as "Death" is really destroyed???

Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Whether this be an entity or a power known as death, it will be destroyed and it will not be forgotten. Destroyed means exactlly that. It is destroyed. Seeing it is the last enemy to be destroyed we have to assume by pure logic and deduction that there are other previous enemies of God that will be destroyed as well. Something that is still hangin around and functioning is something that is not destroyed. God is not the author of confusion. He means what He says within His Word. We just need to let the Bible interpret the Bible in order to figure out What GOD says.

The Lake of Fire is also called the Second Death. For you cannot call it the Second Death unless it is related to the first one. It is like a sequel or continuation of the first one. This is what we read about when Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This means destroy. Not keep alive and torture.

You said:
Everyone on the list is still dead, even if they have been annihilated and everyone has forgotten them.

No. A person is not dead if they are forgotten and still alive. GOD exists everywhere and so you are asking me to believe GOD will abide with watching the wicked suffer for all eternity (Which is monstrous and inhumane). I know. ECT is all you know. It was all I had ever known until God opened my eyes to the problem of ECT. The church after all cannot be wrong, right? But they are. Much in the church today is wrong.

You said:
By logic, there is no way around this insoluble problem...unless ALL are saved, and I won't speculate on the final fate of the devil.

I do not have to speculate on the final fate of the devil because I already shown by Scripture his destruction (Isaiah and Ezekiel).

You said:
When you're dead, you're dead - we all know that.

Hence, why the Second Death is called the Second Death because it relates to the First Death.

You said:
But when you're annihilated, you're still dead, even though some people's logic replaces "dead" with "annihilated" and assume the substitution solves the problem. It does not.

When the Bible talks about a person being spiritually dead, this means that their soul is on the road to destruction and or annihiation. On example of a person being physically alive and yet spiritually dead is in 1 Timothy 5:6. Jesus says He came to give us life and that we may have it more abundantly. This means He can save us now spiritually and our road or path is to EVERLASTING life. We need to endure to the end to be saved. In addition to Justification (accepting Christ as Savior and continuing to believe in Him as our Savior), we also need Sanctification (holy living in the present) and Glorication (God taking us home in the future), too. In other words, there is a past tense, present tense, and future tense to Salvation.
 
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Pneuma3

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No. A person is not dead if they are forgotten and still alive. GOD exists everywhere and so you are asking me to believe GOD will abide with watching the wicked suffer for all eternity (Which is monstrous and inhumane). I know. ECT is all you know. It was all I had ever known until God opened my eyes to the problem of ECT. The church after all cannot be wrong, right? But they are. Much in the church today is wrong.

Jason I believe Lazarus Short believes in the salvation of all, not ECT
 
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Jason I believe Lazarus Short believes in the salvation of all, not ECT

Hmmm, thanks. Hard to keep track who believes what sometimes.
People are not always forth coming or clear with their beliefs when they talk with me.
 
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FineLinen

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Destroyed means exactlly that. It is destroyed.

Dear Jason: You simply must get your nose out of your English Bible alone. In the Hebrew there are over 20 words for destruction: at least 6 link destruction with change and transformation.

Apollumi is the strongest word for destruction in the New Covenant.

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he apollumi one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is apollumi, until he find it?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."
 
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Lazarus Short

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Hmmm, thanks. Hard to keep track who believes what sometimes.
People are not always forth coming or clear with their beliefs when they talk with me.

That is so easy when one seems to misunderstand another's post. Let me be very clear:

IF ANYONE IS STILL DEAD AND/OR IN HELL, HOW CAN DEATH BE DESTROYED?

Further,

HOW CAN THE BIBLE TAUNT DEATH AND THE GRAVE (I Corinthians 15:55) IF ANYONE IS STILL DEAD?

After a couple of years, I have yet to get a straightforward answer from anyone in the ECT crowd.
 
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Der Alte

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Previously posted post #136
All of the verses pertaining to "the second death" in Revelation, in context.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
Other verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new.” But 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
...
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If there is no more death in Rev 21:4 how can the lake of fire still be "the second death: in Rev 21:8?
Where is any verse which says that anyone or anything is thrown into the lake of fire then they die?
 
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That is so easy when one seems to misunderstand another's post. Let me be very clear:

IF ANYONE IS STILL DEAD AND/OR IN HELL, HOW CAN DEATH BE DESTROYED?

1. The devil, his minions, the wicked will be destroyed.
2. The entity or power of death (the last enemy) will then be destroyed by God.

It’s not a problem.
It would be a problem if death was the first enemy to destroyed. This would be the ECT version.

You said:
Further,

HOW CAN THE BIBLE TAUNT DEATH AND THE GRAVE (I Corinthians 15:55) IF ANYONE IS STILL DEAD?

It is speaking future tense of salvation. In 1 Corinthians 15:55, the point here is that death has no permanent sting or hold on the true and faithful believer in the future tense because they will be resurrected to eternal life. The Bible talks of salvation from different tenses (Either past, present, or future).

You said:
After a couple of years, I have yet to get a straightforward answer from anyone in the ECT crowd.

I believe in a variation of DCI (Dualistic Conditional Immorality). This is the view that Hell is a real place and the wicked will be destroyed (annihilated) from existence in the Lake of Fire (after the Judgement).

My view on hell differs from other DCI Proponents in the fact that I attempt to defend the fair justice of God.
 
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Der Alte

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<Laz>That is so easy when one seems to misunderstand another's post. Let me be very clear:
If anyone is still dead and/or in hell, how can death be destroyed?
Further,
How can the bible taunt death and the grave (1 Corinthians 15:55) if anyone is still dead?
After a couple of years, I have yet to get a straightforward answer from anyone in the ECT crowd.<end>
You mention misunderstanding another's post. You apparently cannot understand my post immediately above.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Are dead people in the grave still feeling the sting of death or are the dead oblivious to pain etc?
Is this passage about the destruction of death or is it about the resurrection of the faithful vs. 57? This passage says nothing about the resurrection of the unrighteous.
 
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Dear Jason: You simply must get your nose out of your English Bible alone. In the Hebrew there are over 20 words for destruction: at least 6 link destruction with change and transformation.

Apollumi is the strongest word for destruction in the New Covenant.

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he apollumi one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is apollumi, until he find it?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. The Scribes are those who TRAN-scribes the Law. We also don’t see men of God seek to explain God’s Word always by the method that you use, either. Paul talks about how we use great plainness of speech. Sorry, that’s not the Biblical Hebrew or Greek.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus said beware of the Scribes. The Scribes are those who TRAN-scribes the Law. We also don’t see men of God seek to explain God’s Word always by the method that you use, either. Paul talks about how we use great plainness of speech. Sorry, that’s not the Biblical Hebrew or Greek.
If you are talking to me, neither of my two posts above say anything about Hebrew or Greek. I will listen to you when you tell me which version, of the many in existence today, is the version inspired by God. If I remember correctly you attempted to rewrite scripture to make it fit your assumptions/presuppositions. Is that some of that "plainness of speech" you are talking about?
Which "men of God" are you talking about? Every teacher, professor, preacher, teacher I know of does exactly what I do.
 
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ClementofA

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<CA>...In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ.
...<end>
…..Thirty eight [38] OT verses where the words “olam/ad” corresponds to or is contrasted with adjectives and adjectival phrases which describe/define the word “olam/ad” as eternal, everlasting etc.


Strongs # 5769 is the Hebrew word OLAM that KJV translated "for ever" here:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Will Love Omnipotent cast off the children of men forever? See v.31-33 above.


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: You will find Pneuma does NOT need help with the Greek translations and brother Vine will not help you in this regards.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless.

The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios.

Kolasis aionios
, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

If you persist in your assumption I will ask you one simple question>>>>>>

What does the phrase pro chronon aionion, mean according to you and brother Vine?

Your comparing translations of a man born almost 1900 years after the apostles were dead to the teachings of the very churches that were established by the apostles who spoke and wrote Greek. The Church didn’t need translators to determine the meaning of the scriptures. They were taught by the apostles and handed down those teachings. They got the interpretations directly from the authors of the NT. What your suggesting is that every Church of God is wrong and finally 1900 years later someone was able to determine the truth of God’s Word. Universalists point to a handful of Christian writers claiming they advocated universalism but these handful of men spread out over 2000 years averages to 1 person ever couple hundred years throughout all of the thousands of Christian writings during that time. They are but a grain of sand in the ocean. Is that how we are to determine the truth of God’s word? Is that why the apostles established the churches? Did the apostles fail to do the job Jesus Himself hand picked them to do?
 
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Your comparing translations of a man born almost 1900 years after the apostles were dead to the teachings of the very churches that were established by the apostles who spoke and wrote Greek.

Dear BNR: I know of no individual who is more qualified in koine than Dr. M. Vincent! You still have not answered what does the phrase pro chronon aionion mean according to you and brother Vine? What is the answer?
 
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FineLinen

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Your comparing translations of a man born almost 1900 years after the apostles were dead to the teachings of the very churches that were established by the apostles who spoke and wrote Greek. The Church didn’t need translators to determine the meaning of the scriptures.

Dear BNR: We do not have the Apostles who have died to help us with the koine. What we have after 2000 years, is the language in which they spoke and wrote under the anointing of the Spirit of the Lord. What is required of us is an ear that can hear and a heart to perceive what those apostles of the Lord exclaimed "how can these things be?"

ClementofA has presented the following for us, all of which should be read>>>>>

Early Church Writings Fathers:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Universalism...First 500 Years
 
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ClementofA

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No my friend you simply need a little help with Greek translations. The Greek word aiṓnios (G166) and aiṓn (G165) not only mean age but also mean eternal or everlasting. Let’s examine shall we.
but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age (aiṓn G165) but is in danger of age-during (aiṓnios G166) judgment;'
Now let’s compare this with other similar scriptures.
John 3:16
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166)
Surely God didn’t send Jesus to die so we can have life for a little while. I’m confident that you are a believer of eternal life?

The point of John 3:16 is to contrast eonian destinies in the eon to come, not teach about endless or final destinies. Final destiny was already taught by John earlier in the same book:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

Final destiny is also taught in John 3:17 (see below) & John 4:42, etc:

They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20).

Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."
Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

Matthew 19:16
16 And lo, one having come near, said to him, ‘Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166) ?’
Surely this person isn’t asking Jesus how to get life just for a limited time. Let’s continue.

He is asking Jesus how to obtain life in the eon/age to come when Christ & the saints will live & reign for 1000 years:

Mt.19:16 And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian? (CLV)
Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years

Mk.10:30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian.

Mark 10:30 above & Luke 18:30 indicate "life eonian" is obtained in the "coming eon". If that is the millennial 1000 year eon/age, then it is finite.

Presumably the questioner of Mt.19:16 was aware of the Hebrew Scriptures & Daniel 12:2 where "eonian" destinies, not final destinies, are being contrasted. So arguably he would not have understood "eonian life" to mean "eternal life".

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Matthew 19:29
29 and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name’s sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during (aiṓnios G166) shall inherit;
Again same scenario

See my comments above. They apply again to Mt.19:29, which is a parallel passage to Mark 10:30 & Luke 18:30, quoted above, which arguably limit "eonian life" to the "eon to come" which is finite.

Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

"In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)
Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" in the parallel passages not as "eternal life" but as "the life of the age to come" (Mk.10:30) & has "in the age to come they will receive the life that belongs to that age" (Lk.18:30) & "will inherit the life of that new age" (Mt.19:29).

Final destiny for the people, Israel, of the rich man in Matthew 19 was already taught by Matthew earlier in chapter 1:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

continued in my next post...
 
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ClementofA

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However when aiṓn (G165) is used in conjunction with the a negative for example the phrase “not to the age”,“not in the age”, or “not against the age” it means never. Let’s examine further so we can help our brothers & sisters see the truth of God’s Word. Amen?
John 8:51
51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see – to the age (aiṓn G165) .’
Are those who keep Jesus’ word going to receive life that will eventually perish? Next verse same situation.
John 8:52
52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, ‘Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death – to the age (aiṓn G165)!

In light of Isaiah 65:20, references such as those found in John 8:52-52; & 11:26 may refer to not dying for the coming eschatological eon (e.g. the millennium), as opposed to those who die during that eon at the young age of 100:

Isa.65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

On that view Jesus' remarks in John 11:26 were telling His hearers that those who believe in Him will be among those who do not die in that eon, and not those who are cursed & die.

There's nothing about "never" dieing in John 8:51-52 or Jn.11:26:

26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. (CLV)
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die—to the age; (YLT)
26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. (RO)
26 and all the living and believing into me, not not may die into the age. (DG)
(Greek-English Interlinears at the urls below say:

26 ...into the age
26....to the age
26...into the eon
26...to the age
John 11 δε NOW τις CERTAIN λαζαρος LAZARUS απο FROM βηθανιας BETHANY εκ FROM της THA κωμης TOWN μαριας OF MARIA και AND μαρθας MARTHA της THA αδελφης SISTER αυτης OF HER ην WAS ασθενων SICK
John 11:26 Interlinear: and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Your version changed the literal translation of the Scriptures that speaks of an "eon" into the "never" of man's traditions. Tsk,tsk.

John 10:28
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish – to the age (aiṓn G165), and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
Surely you can see a pattern forming here my friend. I’m surprised that you obviously have access to the Greek Interlinear Bible and you haven’t noticed this before?

See my comments regarding John 8:51-52; 11:26 just above & my remarks re John 3:16-17 at the top of the previous post. They apply here also.

Regarding the Greek word aionion:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
... Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-...
Where exactly does Vincent say this? I can't find anything like this in Vincent's Word Studies.
 
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