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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Keep looking Der. Seek and you shall find.

    From Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent. Marvin Richardson Vincent (1834-1922) was a Presbyterian minister, professor of New Testament exegesis at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In his Word Studies in the New Testament Vincent explains the meaning of the words often translated ‘eternity’ and ‘eternal’ in the Bible, though these words in most (if not all) cases denote limited durations.
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    And all shall do so.

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

    "God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."


    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols


    "God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
    "Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    <FL>Keep looking Der. Seek and you shall find.
    From Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent. Marvin Richardson Vincent (1834-1922) was a Presbyterian minister, professor of New Testament exegesis at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In his Word Studies in the New Testament Vincent explains the meaning of the words often translated ‘eternity’ and ‘eternal’ in the Bible, though these words in most (if not all) cases denote limited durations.<end>

    I did finally find the reference, which you should have given, 2 Thes 1:9. I must have missed the memo. When did Vincent become the be all, end all authority on Koine Greek? Do you know if Vincent anywhere in his word studies, or any other writing, give his explanation how he determined that aionios does not mean eternal? Because neither BDAG nor LSJ state that. Both of which would have been available to Vincent. I assume that you do know what BDAG and LSJ are. These initials refer to seven different Greek scholars.
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    "Love never gives up. Love cares more for others than for self.

    Love doesn't want what it doesn't have. Love doesn't strut, Doesn't have a swelled head, Doesn't force itself on others, Isn't always "me first," Doesn't fly off the handle, Doesn't keep score of the sins of others, Doesn't revel when others grovel, Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,

    Puts up with anything, Trusts God always, Always looks for the best, Never looks back, But keeps going to the end.

    Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit.

    We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

    When I was an infant at my mother's breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.

    We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!

    But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love." -The Message-
  5. Faith Unites

    Faith Unites Newbie

    In Relationship
    It is my understanding that the only dead are those that don’t follow Christ yet. Christ brings our spirit to life. That is why we see the term “the dead” so often. Christ came to bring the living dead to life. And yes we agree that Christ is the savior of all men but that doesn’t mean all men will be saved. The Bible is quite clear on that.
  6. Faith Unites

    Faith Unites Newbie

    In Relationship
    Agreed. But obv the interpretations on hell are mixed. That being the case I believe it is best to simply say “I don’t know for certain”. Better to believe in hell and be wrong than to believe that everyone will be saved and be wrong. Focus on Christ and let him do the judging.
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    Does this definition of love also apply to God or only humans?
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Dear Mr. Faith: Jesus Christ is only a potential Saviour, especially of the especially. The Bible is quite clear on that.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Indeed. Properly understanding “death” and “life” in the Bible will help a person to see that both ECT and Universalism are false. Jesus said He came to give us life and so as to have it more abundantly.
  10. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    The problem, though, as I've pointed out, is that the fool in this instance isn't the Bible scholar I quoted.

    Am I being obtuse? I think that question is more appropriately applied in your direction! You are the one, after all, who wrote:

    "now if the blood of bulls covered EVERYONE how much better is the blood of Christ, yet your belief reverses it and says the blood of Christ does not cover EVERYONE."

    But as I pointed out, the blood of sacrificed bulls was not a covering for sin for everyone. It does not follow, then, that Christ's shed blood is a covering for all mankind, too. Thus, your argument dissolves before it barely gets started!

    You might also want to consider:

    Hebrews 10:4
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
  11. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

    United States
    What do you make of Jn 1:9: "There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."?

    But isn't this logically impossible? Decomposition is a degrading process that results or ends in one state or another of the thing being decomposed. How can something become "less" forever without ending in nothingness?

    But again, how does this work logically? Body and soul are generally considered to be a whole working system. One's moral bearing can be thrown off for example if certain parts of the brain are corrupted. With the relations reversed, it's usually assumed that physical addiction begins not in the material realm but in the soul or mind; lusting after a thing for its perceived good despite knowledge to the contrary (there's almost always some degree of knowledge that there are certain perils to drinking alcohol, smoking, taking drugs, etc.).

    The point is, body and soul, though distinct domains, are nonetheless very strongly connected aspects of a whole. How can the body degrade if affected by a wholly regenerated spirit? [For clarity I use spirit here as animating force and soul as the mind produced by this force. There are different ways to frame the equation, this is just the one being used here.]
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    If this is true why would God let men live like the devil in this life and punish them for some indeterminate period? Why doesn't God save them through [his] moral influence.[his] resources in his universe, [his] all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! [his] light enough to make the blind see, and [His] love enough to melt the hardened heart,” here in this world, this life? Does God delight in punishing his creation when He could do all these things to lovingly guide them to live righteously here in this life?
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  13. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    I did not read it.
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    Then you will understand when I ignore the rest of your posts.
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    The Greek word for "forgiven", APHIEMI, has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

    Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

    "Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit

    Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
    Definition of REMIT
    Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
    "An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

    So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.

    Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.

    Also my previous post to you made a case, with the support of Scriptures, as to what the consequences for committing this particular sin are. They remain unchallenged.

    Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".

    Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

    Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
    mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

    Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

    As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.

    We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

    United States
    I don’t know I could probably look it up.
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    The fact is the Greek word KOLASIS can refer to correction for the good of the offender. Whether you want to call that correction a "punishment" is irrelevant. You had incorrectly stated:

    My previous post showed at length why KOLASIS can indeed "serve a corrective purpose", contrary to your statement.

    Many others disagree with those of certain biases upon which you appear to blindly trust without considering the actual evidence of the ancient usage of the Greek word KOLASIS (e.g. see my previous post) as opposed to the unsupported guesswork of fallible men who've provided no evidence for their view. Also you provided no quotes or references from such to support your claims.

    Do you also trust Kittel when it speaks of the remedy for Spirit blasphemy. Or when it refers to the reconciliation of Col.1:16,20 as including demonic beings? Do you also blindly trust everything in BDAG? Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)

    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

    That is just regurgitating the same unproven assumptions of your private interpretation that you've stated before & which have already been addressed:

    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?

    What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

    An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    I don't consider it speculation, but based on solid evidence, as follows:

    The point of John 3:16 is to contrast eonian destinies in the eon to come, not teach about endless or final destinies. Final destiny was already taught by John earlier in the same book:
    John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
    Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.
    Final destiny is also taught in John 3:17 (see below) & John 4:42, etc:
    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
    For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).
    In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.
    Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:
    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)
    There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":
    “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки
    More literal versions of John 3:16 say:
    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)
    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.
    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20).
    Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).
    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.
    "While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."
    Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

    He is asking Jesus how to obtain life in the eon/age to come when Christ & the saints will live & reign for 1000 years:
    Mt.19:16 And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian? (CLV)
    Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years
    Mk.10:30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian.
    Mark 10:30 above & Luke 18:30 indicate "life eonian" is obtained in the "coming eon". If that is the millennial 1000 year eon/age, then it is finite.
    Presumably the questioner of Mt.19:16 was aware of the Hebrew Scriptures & Daniel 12:2 where "eonian" destinies, not final destinies, are being contrasted. So arguably he would not have understood "eonian life" to mean "eternal life".
    The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".
    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)
    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.
    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:
    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]
    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.
    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet
    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]
    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.
    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)
    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf
    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.
    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?
    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
    Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame
    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
    See my comments above. They apply again to Mt.19:29, which is a parallel passage to Mark 10:30 & Luke 18:30, quoted above, which arguably limit "eonian life" to the "eon to come" which is finite.
    Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.
    "In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).
    Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:
    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).
    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)
    Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:
    "...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)
    Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope
    N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" in the parallel passages not as "eternal life" but as "the life of the age to come" (Mk.10:30) & has "in the age to come they will receive the life that belongs to that age" (Lk.18:30) & "will inherit the life of that new age" (Mt.19:29).
    Final destiny for the people, Israel, of the rich man in Matthew 19 was already taught by Matthew earlier in chapter 1:
    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
    The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.
    Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
    Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
    "They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."
    Why affirm belief in Hell?
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Dear BNR: My friend that is a an excellent idea. Brother Vine will not assist you. When you find the answer please explain it to Mr. Discombobulated, F.L.