Question about eternal damnation

[Dkh587]

Dear Dkh: I do not believe in "universalism" either! On the other hand what the prophets declare regarding the Restitution of all things grips me with a passion,

This will likely be a silly question for you, but can you articulate the difference between our God who IS consuming fire, & the Lake of theion rooted in Theos ?

I don’t really know how to answer your question

 

[Pneuma3]

No my friend you simply need a little help with Greek translations. The Greek word aiṓnios (G166) and aiṓn (G165) not only mean age but also mean eternal or everlasting. Let’s examine shall we.

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age (aiṓn G165) but is in danger of age-during (aiṓnios G166) judgment;'

Now let’s compare this with other similar scriptures.

John 3:16

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166)

Surely God didn’t send Jesus to die so we can have life for a little while. I’m confident that you are a believer of eternal life?

Matthew 19:16

16 And lo, one having come near, said to him, ‘Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166) ?’

Surely this person isn’t asking Jesus how to get life just for a limited time. Let’s continue.

Matthew 19:29

29 and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name’s sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during (aiṓnios G166) shall inherit;

Again same scenario

However when aiṓn (G165) is used in conjunction with the a negative for example the phrase “not to the age”,“not in the age”, or “not against the age” it means never. Let’s examine further so we can help our brothers & sisters see the truth of God’s Word. Amen?

John 8:51

51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see – to the age (aiṓn G165) .’

Are those who keep Jesus’ word going to receive life that will eventually perish? Next verse same situation.

John 8:52

52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, ‘Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death – to the age (aiṓn G165)!


John 10:28

28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish – to the age (aiṓn G165), and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;

Surely you can see a pattern forming here my friend. I’m surprised that you obviously have access to the Greek Interlinear Bible and you haven’t noticed this before?

Our life in Christ is not tied to aionios life.

eternal/aionios life is speaking of the life of that age, just as the punishment is speaking of the life of that age and nether have anything to do with eternal/aidos life.

MUCH MORE then aionios life


Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.


They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.


But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.


Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.


The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.


Habakkuk 3:6

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways areeverlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.


Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence.



Psalm 41:13

13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.

If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.

I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.


Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.


Psalm 90:1-2

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.


We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.


The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.


The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.


Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.


Hebrews 7:16

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction

From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?


What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.


Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


1 Peter 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial

Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end


Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?


These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.


If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.


Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.


Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.


Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

 

[Pneuma3]

No, I never said it wasn't important; that was your Strawman of what I said. You were the one asserting that, since Gehenna wasn't mentioned frequently in Scripture, it was, therefore, not important. When I asked you how often exactly it should have been mentioned before it could be considered important, and who has the authority to make that decision, you began to madly deflect and even try to assert that I had contradicted myself. No one is fooled by these weak attempts at obfuscation. I know I'm not.

I will repeat my position here for you again since you apparently missed it completely the first time I stated it: It doesn't follow that because a thing is not common or frequent that it is not, therefore, important. There is only one President of the United States at any given time but he is very important. Each of us have only one heart, but it is still extremely important to our continuing to live. At a two-way stop, there are only two stop signs; not ten, or twenty, just two. But these signs are very important, despite there being so few of them. It doesn't follow, then, that because Gehenna isn't mentioned often in Scripture it is therefore unimportant. The number of times it appears in the Bible does not necessarily determine its importance.

8 times yup really important.

Interesting. I'm afraid your ignorance is showing, though. "That guy" is Dr. W.E. Vine who has long been regarded as one of the best expository Bible lexicographers of modern times. He's on par with Joseph Thayer and Gerhard Kittel. Simply responding with "that guy is just all kinds of wrong" doesn't even begin to answer what he has explained - as a Greek language expert - about the terms "aionios" and "aidios."

You haven't apparently understood at all any of the quotations to which you're responding in the quotation above. There is some "pure idiocy" going on, but it is not in the quotations I offered by highly regarded and established Bible scholars.

Was not referring to vines, was referring to the idiot that made vines say aidios and aionios mean the same thing.

 

[Pneuma3]

Well, instead of just saying so, prove it. Show how my "lack of knowledge is showing."

already did when I said

You do realize I hope that when the high priest made a sin offering that it covered EVERYONE do you not?

now if the blood of bulls covered EVERYONE how much better is the blood of Christ, yet your belief reverses it and says the blood of Christ does not cover EVERYONE.

 

[Pneuma3]

This contradicts everything that has been said in this thread from the universalists.

no it does not, but it does show how little you actually understand what we believe.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Sarah: The plain wording for destruction is apollumi. Perhaps it would be interesting to behold what apollumi in "plain wording" means?

GREEK WORD STUDIES ἀπόλλυμι, 'apollumi' for 'Perish, Destroy'

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

Dear Sarah: There are over 20 distinct words for "destruction" in the Old Covenant: of those, there are at least six that link destruction with change & transformation. Nothing of our Father is simple & most assuredly NOT "limited"!

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

 

[hedrick]

Sometimes it is good to focus on one verse in what it says at a time and try to address what that verse says (Instead of always taking a shotgun approach involving the Scriptures). But looking at the other verses on the Lake of Fire does not help to prove your case, my friend. Just because the beast and the false prophet are assumed to be alive in the Lake of Fire when the devil is cast in the Lake of Fire does not mean that they will not be eventually destroyed at a later date. Also, Revelation 20:10 does not mean that the beast and the false prophet are alive in the Lake of Fire, either. It does not specifically say they are alive. It simple says they are there. It could simply mean they are there in a destroyed state (i.e. they are residing there as lifeless corpses).

But what about their being tormented for ever and ever?

The words forever or ever = aeon (or age).

So Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 10:10 Darby

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."​

Note: the words in blue in brackets above, are my commentary to the text.

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

I'm sympathetic with your position, but if you're not an expert in NT Greek, you should stick with mainstream English translations. You've cited overly literal translations that give an incorrect impression of the meaning. Rev 20:10 says that the humans who were deceived are destroyed, but the devil is tormented forever. (In my view, Rev suggests annihilation of the reprobate.)

I agree about Rev 21:5. It's hard to imagine the new heavens and new earth having an eternal pit of fire and brimstone in them. But I don't think you can resolve this by torturing the Greek. Prophets sometimes use hyperbole. Is 34:10 has a similar image, but as far as I know Edom isn't still burning. (Or Jerusalem, which may be the actual reference.) Nor is Syria still deserted (Is 17:2). I think that's what is going on here.

 

[FineLinen]

"WHAT MAN OF YOU HAVING AN HUNDRED SHEEP * * IF HE LOSE ONE OF THEM, DOES NOT LEAVE THE NINETY AND NINE * * AND GO AFTER THAT WHICH IS LOST UNTIL HE FIND IT ?" S. Luke 15. 4.

Ancient commentators follow two main lines, (I.) the hundred sheep are all men; (II.) are all spiritual creatures: in the former case the wicked are the strayed sheep: in the latter mankind itself, which by the Fall has strayed from the heavenly fold. Both views seem to involve Universalism.

For in the one all the wicked, in the other all humanity, are sought till they are found.

Any narrowing of the "sheep" to the elect, is quite alien from the whole spirit of this parable, which was specially addressed to the publican and the sinner.

See how broadly Christ bases His argument, "what man of you," He asks, "would not do this ?"

Observe the immense significance of Christ's teaching. It expressly sanctions the right to argue from those feelings of humanity, shared even by the outcast and sinful, to the divine feelings.

Note, too, the ground taken - the divine loss. It is not the man who loses his soul, it is God who loses the man; (a fact ignored - with much else - in popular teaching.)

"WHAT WOMAN, HAVING TEN PIECES OF SILVER, IF SHE LOSE ONE PIECE, DOES NOT SEEK DILIGENTLY TILL SHE FINDS IT?" S. Luke 15. 8

Here is precisely the same broad human basis, and the same broad hopeful teaching. Keep steadily in view these facts taught here:

(I.) - Our own feelings of love and pity are a safe guide to God's feelings; on these very feelings Christ expressly builds, asking, "what man of you ?"

(II.) - Every lost soul is God's loss, Who, therefore, seeks its recovery; and

(III.) - will seek till He find it.

(IV.) - The whole of the loss is repaired.

(V.) If God feel the loss of man, He will always feel it. Hence, if sin be endless, the divine Passion must surely be endless too.

"FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST." S. Luke 19. 10

If so, I gather from His own parables, and His essential nature, that so long as anything is lost, Jesus Christ will go on seeking and saving; for is He not always the same? (Heb. 13 8. "'the lost" are His charge, and not some of the lost, a very different thing. Or are we to read this verse thus: "He came indeed to save 'the lost '-but those in the fullest sense 'lost' He will never save?"

"THE SAME CAME * * THAT ALL MEN THROUGH HIM (CHRIST) MIGHT BELIEVE." S. John 1. 7

Yes, that all men might believe, that is indeed the divine purpose - the purpose of Him Who sent the Baptist. But dare we say, that what God purposes, He will fail to do?

I read distinctly of the immutability of His counsel (Heb. 6. 17). Am I to believe that the immutable purpose of the Almighty and unchanging God shall finally come to nothing?

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

 

[hedrick]

Both views seem to involve Universalism.

There are obvious universalist signs in the Gospels. Another is that we should forgive our enemies because God does. But I think there can be exceptions. Mat 12:31 says people will be forgiven for everything except one.

I think people are misreading the parable of the narrow gate to say that most of humanity is damned. I don't believe that. I think Jesus' warnings about punishment are mostly not intended to imply eternal torment. But still, I don't think we can state with confidence that everyone will be saved.

 

[aiki]

Was not referring to vines, was referring to the idiot that made vines say aidios and aionios mean the same thing.

It is not idiotic to acknowledge that this is what the parallel in Matthew 25:46 does which is what the Bible scholars in the quotation I offered did.

now if the blood of bulls covered EVERYONE how much better is the blood of Christ, yet your belief reverses it and says the blood of Christ does not cover EVERYONE.

Hebrews 9:13-14
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So, where is the "blood of Christ covers everyone" statement in this verse, exactly? We know the blood of bulls did not cover everyone, only those for whom the sacrifice of a bull was made. Certainly, the many pagan nations surrounding Israel were not covered by the blood of the sacrifices of Israel.

 

[Pneuma3]

It is not idiotic to acknowledge that this is what the parallel in Matthew 25:46 does which is what the Bible scholars in the quotation I offered did.

I do believe it does for if you acknowledge a fool in his folly he will say acting the fool.

Hebrews 9:13-14
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So, where is the "blood of Christ covers everyone" statement in this verse, exactly? We know the blood of bulls did not cover everyone, only those for whom the sacrifice of a bull was made. Certainly, the many pagan nations surrounding Israel were not covered by the blood of the sacrifices of Israel.

Eeek gad are you being deliberately obtuse? we are speaking of the Atonement, which is the blood offering for sin. According to scripture that Atonement was not only for the believer but for the whole world. Therefore as the blood of bulls was a covering for EVERYONE so to is the blood of Jesus.

What you are in effect saying is the blood of bulls is superior then the blood of Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

There are obvious universalist signs in the Gospels. Another is that we should forgive our enemies because God does. But I think there can be exceptions. Mat 12:31 says people will be forgiven for everything except one.

I think people are misreading the parable of the narrow gate to say that most of humanity is damned. I don't believe that. I think Jesus' warnings about punishment are mostly not intended to imply eternal torment. But still, I don't think we can state with confidence that everyone will be saved.

Dear Hedrick: All of us do great deals of misreading! "Eternal torment" the theme of this link is so out of character with the Father.

F.L believes in "damnation" the same damnation that begins at the House of God.

"Every one will not only be saved, they will be reconciled, they will be saved, reconciled and "made righteous"!

 

[FineLinen]

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you! According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

 

[FineLinen]

The Father Who Lost Two Sons -R.F. Capon-

This is about what's normally called The Parable of the Prodigal Son. That's only one of the two sons in the parable, the younger boy. The older boy is the one—the other son—who is lost. And the point about changing the name of the parable is that the parables are almost always misnamed.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is not about the lost sheep.

All the sheep ever did was get lost. The parable is about the passion of the shepherd who lost the sheep to find the sheep. His passion to find is what drives the parable; and consequently it isn't the Prodigal's lostness, wasting all his money on wine, women and song in the far country; and it isn't the elder brother's grousing and complaining and score keeping that stands against him. What counts in the parable is the father's unceasing desire to find the sons he lost—both of them—and to raise both of them up from the dead.

Two Sons: One Get's The Money, The Other Gets The Farm

The story, of course, you know. The story begins with the father having two sons and the youngest son comes to the father and says, "Father, divide the inheritance between me and my brother."

What he's in effect saying is, "Dear Dad, drop dead now, legally. Put your will into effect and just retire out of the whole business of being anything to anybody and let us have what is coming to us."

So the youngest son gets the money and the older brother gets the farm. And off the younger brother goes. What he does, of course, is he spends it all—blows it all—on wild living. When he finally is in want and working, slopping hogs for a farmer and wishing that he could eat what he's feeding the pigs, he can't stand it. When he finally comes to himself he says, "You know, I've got to do something. How many hired servants of my father's are there who have bread enough to spare and I'm perishing here with hunger? I know what I'm going to do."

One More Dumb Plan

Almost every preacher makes this the boy's repentance. It's not his repentance. This is just one more dumb plan for his life. He says, "I will go to my father and I will say, 'Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you.'"

That's true. He got that one right. "And I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." Score two. He gets that one right. But the next thing he says is dead wrong. He says, "Make me one of your hired servants." He knows—he thinks he knows—he can't go back as a dead son, and therefore he says, "I will now go back as somebody who can earn my father's favor again. I will be a good worker or whatever." This is not a real repentance, it's just a plan for a life. What it is, is enough to get him started going home, and consequently when he goes home, what happens next is an absolutely fascinating kind of thing.

Continued below

"The Father Who Lost Two Sons" by Robert Farrar Capon

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sympathetic with your position,

The reason you say this is because GOD it is moral and good. Everyone knows that fair justice says that a person is punished according to the crimes they commit. The punishment against GOD for all eternity because GOD is eternal does not fit the crime because we do not have a time machine to sin against GOD for all time. The basis of His holy character being eternal would not warrant for a person to be punished for all eternity. Even crimes committed against certain political figures is not that extreme and has it's limits. Jesus said to even GOD the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him, for they know not what they did. That does not sound like the god of ECT. According to that version of God, they should be punished for all eternity for crucifying their LORD. But GOD has mercy. It is embedded in His good character. The god of ECT does not have mercy. It is an attack upon the real GOD of the Bible who is fair, just, and good in everything He does.

but if you're not an expert in NT Greek, you should stick with mainstream English translations. You've cited overly literal translations that give an incorrect impression of the meaning.

I disagree with your approach to the Scriptures that says that you actually know the Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek. These are dead languages and you do not grow up in Bible times experiencing these languages for yourself. Paul would no doubt correct you on your understanding on these languages because you did not grow up speaking and writing them like he did. You are only guessing as to what these languages say based on other men's wisdom and understanding hindsight. Lexicons are not inspired by GOD. But the Bible is inspired and preserved for all generations because GOD said He would preserve His words for all generations and He would not preserve Lexicons. In fact, Jesus says beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the Law or the Scriptures. Jesus no doubt was warning us against them because they sought after altering God's Word in some way. James talks about how the poor are rich in faith in this world. This means that a poor man on the streets has the capacity to understand God's Word plainly in the English without the aid of a Lexicon and only by prayer to GOD and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. We also do not see any of the men of GOD in the New Testament claim that the only way to understand God's Word better is to look to some older or ancient language like Hebrew, etc. While the Bible does use on occasion an untranslated word, this is not the norm. This is why I believe it is okay to do an occasional word study when it is absolutely needed, but to say that one cannot understand the Scriptures without knowing the original languages is by far the biggest lie that has come down the pipe in our history. Bible schools sell men on that lie, and I am so glad I never went to Bible school because of this reason. Then there is all that money that they take, as well. But the Word is free; For it is written,

"Ho, everyone that thirsts, come you to the waters, and he that has no money; come you, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." (Isaiah 55:1).

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

Paul says he used great plainness of speech. A person who puts up walls of Biblical Greek text (a language nobody knows today) is not using the great plainness of speech Paul talked about. For Paul said he would rather speak five words with the understanding than ten thousand words without the understanding. Greek is sort of like tongues and you need a proper interpreter. GOD. But seeing we have no way of verifying that this language by the fact that it still in existence today, we cannot say for certain what is meant with 100% accuracy unless we look to our modern day language.

Rev 20:10 says that the humans who were deceived are destroyed, but the devil is tormented forever. (In my view, Rev suggests annihilation of the reprobate.)

No, my friend. Even the devil will be destroyed.

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

‭‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
​

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”
​

Logic dictates that if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, then it makes sense that all the previous enemies of God will be destroyed, too (like the devil and his minions and the wicked).

I agree about Rev 21:5. It's hard to imagine the new heavens and new earth having an eternal pit of fire and brimstone in them. But I don't think you can resolve this by torturing the Greek. Prophets sometimes use hyperbole. Is 34:10 has a similar image, but as far as I know Edom isn't still burning. (Or Jerusalem, which may be the actual reference.) Nor is Syria still deserted (Is 17:2). I think that's what is going on here.

While it is possible it is speaking metaphorically, this would not be an isolated verse to make my case alone for Dualistic Conditional Immortality. There are tons of verses that are in favor of Conditional Immortality, and only 4-5 verses at best that suggest Eternal Torment. In fact, Jesus always illustrated spiritual truth by way of a real world example (parable). ECT cannot be illustrated in this way. It fails miserably. ECT is clearly a tradition of man that seeks to attack the good character of our GOD by saying that He is not fair or good when it comes to justice. People may not agree with that statement, but it is the truth because they cannot illustrate how ECT is moral and good. I know. I have tried to defend ECT in the past and I could never defend ECT on a moral level. That is because it is immoral.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, it appears in Luke 16:26 that Abraham is referring to more than one person present around the rich man. I imagine he is not alone in his torment and many are seeking to cross over but they cannot.

Luke 16:26
(26) And besides all this, between us and you [plural] a great chasm has been set in place, so that those [plural] who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over [plural verb] from there to us.'

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<Jas>I disagree with your approach to the Scriptures that says that you actually know the Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek. These are dead languages and you do not grow up in Bible times experiencing these languages for yourself. Paul would no doubt correct you on your understanding on these languages because you did not grow up speaking and writing them like he did. You are only guessing as to what these languages say based on other men's wisdom and understanding hindsight. Lexicons are not inspired by GOD. But the Bible is inspired and preserved for all generations because GOD said He would preserve His words for all generations and He would not preserve Lexicons.<end>

end

Greek has never been a dead language. It has been spoken in Greece continuously since before 225 BC when the OT was translated into Greek by Jewish scholars.
As for Hebrew.

But for external reasons to do with the Bar Kohba war of 135 CE, exile and diaspora, Hebrew gradually became extinct as a spoken language around 200 CE. Yet, it continued to be used as a liturgical and written language for many centuries thereafter. It was used for prayer and to write books and documents in a variety of fields, including not just religion, but also law, business, philosophy, literature and medicine. Furthermore, it was spoken by Jewish traders as a second language, a lingua franca for communication between Jews from different lands (more on this below). But crucially, it was not spoken by anyone as a native language, a mother tongue.
Modern Hebrew: old or new? - Languages Of The World
Hebrew is the only example of a language used by a people virtually expelled from their country who spread worldwide and was reborn on their return after 2,000 years. This happened because it never became a dead language.
They did this in four ways. Firstly, it was the language of their religion - known as ‘biblical Hebrew’, which was taught and used. Secondly while they used the local language they spoke and wrote it using Hebrew script, for example Judeo-Arabic, Judeo-French and Judeo-Greek. Thirdly it was the language used between Jews as an international communication medium. Fourthly it became the common language for Jews escaping the pogroms and anti-Semitism at the end of the nineteenth century when they resettled in what was then Ottoman Palestine.
Survival of the Hebrew (Jewish) Language​

If Hebrew and Greek were "dead" languages" as you claim how were the KJV translators and other translators since then able to translate the Bible into English. Which translation is God inspired?

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Faith Unites]

no it does not, but it does show how little you actually understand what we believe.

I haven’t heard anyone mention hell yet (until you) and every time time it is mentioned people wig out. My entire point in this discussion has been that we don’t know for certain if repentance after death is a possibility. Therefore it is a dangerous philosophy to spread.

 

[FineLinen]

I haven’t heard anyone mention hell yet (until you) and every time time it is mentioned people wig out. My entire point in this discussion has been that we don’t know for certain if repentance after death is a possibility. Therefore it is a dangerous philosophy to spread.

Dear Mr. Faith:This entire link is regarding the ghastly dogma of "damnation". Do you think mentioning hell will ease the nastiness of it? Hell is consummated in the Lake of Fire radiating with theion. Would you like to venture a guess the root of theion?