BNR32FAN

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Now read the same parallel passage in mark.

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

There is a huge difference between never being forgiven and not being forgiven to the age

No my friend you simply need a little help with Greek translations. The Greek word aiṓnios (G166) and aiṓn (G165) not only mean age but also mean eternal or everlasting. Let’s examine shall we.

but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age (aiṓn G165) but is in danger of age-during (aiṓnios G166) judgment;'

Now let’s compare this with other similar scriptures. :)

John 3:16

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166)

Surely God didn’t send Jesus to die so we can have life for a little while. I’m confident that you are a believer of eternal life?

Matthew 19:16

16 And lo, one having come near, said to him, ‘Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during (aiṓnios G166) ?’

Surely this person isn’t asking Jesus how to get life just for a limited time. Let’s continue.

Matthew 19:29

29 and every one who left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, for my name’s sake, an hundredfold shall receive, and life age-during (aiṓnios G166) shall inherit;

Again same scenario;)

However when aiṓn (G165) is used in conjunction with the a negative for example the phrase “not to the age”,“not in the age”, or “not against the age” it means never. Let’s examine further so we can help our brothers & sisters see the truth of God’s Word. Amen?

John 8:51

51 verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see – to the age (aiṓn G165) .’

Are those who keep Jesus’ word going to receive life that will eventually perish? Next verse same situation.

John 8:52

52 The Jews, therefore, said to him, ‘Now we have known that thou hast a demon; Abraham did die, and the prophets, and thou dost say, If any one may keep my word, he shall not taste of death – to the age (aiṓn G165)!


John 10:28

28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish – to the age (aiṓn G165), and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;

Surely you can see a pattern forming here my friend. I’m surprised that you obviously have access to the Greek Interlinear Bible and you haven’t noticed this before?
 
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BNR32FAN

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You answered your own question in the next quote.





it is the difference between the firstfruit and the harvest. Do you believe only for yourself or do you believe for the harvest? What good is your salvation if all your loved one perish? (I use perish here according to your understanding of it)

That's why believing is relevant now BRN so the firstfruit can bring in the harvest.

I’m not here teaching for my own salvation my friend. :)

Did you not see the difference in my two statements? There is a subtle difference that makes a world of difference. God wanting everyone to be saved and God wanting to save everyone is not the same thing. God wants us to choose to love Him of our own free will. He wants us to come to Him and ask for His help. He doesn’t want to drag anyone to heaven against their will. Nor will he force us to love Him because love must be a gift given freely in order to be a precious gift.
 
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aiki

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So important that Gahanna is only mentioned 8 times in scripture.
First you say that does not matter, now you say it does. Make up your mind.

No, I never said it wasn't important; that was your Strawman of what I said. You were the one asserting that, since Gehenna wasn't mentioned frequently in Scripture, it was, therefore, not important. When I asked you how often exactly it should have been mentioned before it could be considered important, and who has the authority to make that decision, you began to madly deflect and even try to assert that I had contradicted myself. No one is fooled by these weak attempts at obfuscation. I know I'm not.

I will repeat my position here for you again since you apparently missed it completely the first time I stated it: It doesn't follow that because a thing is not common or frequent that it is not, therefore, important. There is only one President of the United States at any given time but he is very important. Each of us have only one heart, but it is still extremely important to our continuing to live. At a two-way stop, there are only two stop signs; not ten, or twenty, just two. But these signs are very important, despite there being so few of them. It doesn't follow, then, that because Gehenna isn't mentioned often in Scripture it is therefore unimportant. The number of times it appears in the Bible does not necessarily determine its importance.

famous last words, and you like some are trying to put square pegs in round holes

??? Is this supposed to constitute an argument? It's just, well, a sort of impotent "Says you!"

That tells me you did not even read what I wrote if you did not see the point being addressed.

Oh, I read what you wrote. My response to it stands.

that guy is just all kinds of wrong. that is like saying Hell should always be translated heaven and heaven should always be translated hell, because they are matching up two things with two different meaning and calling them the same. Pure idiocy

Interesting. I'm afraid your ignorance is showing, though. "That guy" is Dr. W.E. Vine who has long been regarded as one of the best expository Bible lexicographers of modern times. He's on par with Joseph Thayer and Gerhard Kittel. Simply responding with "that guy is just all kinds of wrong" doesn't even begin to answer what he has explained - as a Greek language expert - about the terms "aionios" and "aidios."

You haven't apparently understood at all any of the quotations to which you're responding in the quotation above. There is some "pure idiocy" going on, but it is not in the quotations I offered by highly regarded and established Bible scholars.
 
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What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”, Lk.12:10) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Luke 12:10 doesn't say. Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes. Consider the following passages of Scripture where death is the penalty for blasphemy that the blasphemers were not pardoned from:

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Compare also these Scripture passages referring to death as the penalty that was not pardoned:

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10).



If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be pardoned you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)




Let's say a criminal whose punishment according to God's law of justice is to be stoned to death & he "shall not be pardoned" (i.e. "not be let off" the hook for this crime's punishment), so the people stone him to death. Just because the criminal was "not pardoned" (let off) from the due punishment of stoning and his crime was, in that sense, "unpardonable", that does not mean Love Omnipotent, i.e. God, ceased to love him or was incapable of - forgiving - the criminal for his - sin - postmortem if he confessed & repented.

Compare these verses in Numbers 15 which some commentaries have linked to the Spirit blasphemy Synoptic passages in the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark & Luke:

27 Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be pardoned. 30 But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’” (Numbers 15:27-31)

Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

Luke 12:10 And everyone who shall be declaring a word against the Son of Man, it shall be pardoned him, yet the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit shall not be pardoned.

Luke 12:10 does not say what the penalty for blasphemy is that will "not be pardoned".

Compare the Old Testament passages above, where the penalty was death. Likewise when Ananias & Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, they died physically (Acts 5):

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost… Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost (Acts 5:3-6, 9-10).

Compare also the following, which refer to death as the penalty:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

2 Chr.16:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.
17 So He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans, who put their choice young men to the sword in the sanctuary, sparing neither young men nor young women, neither elderly nor infirm. God gave them all into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.

And revealed it hath been in mine ears, By Jehovah of Hosts: Not pardoned is this iniquity to you, Till ye die, said the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts. (Isaiah 22:14)

20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65:20)

What is the consequence that will not be pardoned (or “let off”) for blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Could it be death, whether in “this age or in the age to come” (Mt.12:32), e.g. the millennium? Perhaps an imminent or immediate death, and or divinely sanctioned capital punishment. A death that ends their opportunity for salvation by grace in their mortal life & ships them off to corrective punishment, such as in a place the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) went to? For as long as it takes.




Why would a mother not love her son who received "life imprisonment", was "not pardoned" by the governor, served his full sentence & was released from prison after 20 years? If his crime were "unpardonable" according to justice, he was released after serving the punishment for it, and still could be forgiven by his mother & those he harmed.

God is love. Does He cease being love so He can be the opposite of love, i.e. a sadistic monster infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined?

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.
Luke says it won’t be forgiven. Mark says it won’t be forgiven in this world or the next. So death from this world obviously doesn’t pay for this sin if it is not forgiven in the next world. The result is eternal damnation in the lake of fire. The same as all nonbelievers who die unrepentant. I think the main problem with universalism is it tries to reconcile God to man instead of reconciling man to God. It is for people who can’t accept God for who He is. Created by people who said I don’t think God would let someone suffer for eternity. Well that what the Bible and His church have always taught.
 
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aiki

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Actually the Greek word for "punishment" in Mt.25:46 can mean a corrective punishment for the good & betterment of the offender:

According to this alleged quote of Trench κόλασις, as opposed to τιμωρία, has "more the notion of punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender (see Philo, Leg, ad Cai. I; Josephus, Antt. ii. 6. 8); it is ‘castigatio,’ and naturally has for the most part a milder use than τιμωρία. Thus Plato (Protag. 323 e) joins κολάσεις and νουθετήσεις together: and the whole passage to the end of the chapter is eminently instructive as to the distinction between the words: οὐδεὶς κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται, ... ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ; the same change in the words which he employs, occurring again twice or thrice in the sentence; with all which may be compared what Clement of Alexandria has said, Strom. iv. 24; and again vii. 16, where he defines κολάσεις as μερικαὶ παιδεῖαι, and τιμωρία as κακοῦ ἀνταπόδοσις. And this is Aristotle’s distinction (Rhet. i. 10): διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν· ἡ δὲ τιμωρία, τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ: cf. Ethic. Nic. iv. 5: τιμωρία παύει τῆς ὀργῆς, ἠδονῆν ἀντὶ τῆς λύπης ἐμποιοῦσα. It is to these and similar definitions that Aulus Gellius refers when he says (Noct. Att. vi. 14): ‘Puniendis peccatis tres esse debere causas existimatum est. Una est quae νουθεσία, vel, κόλασις, vel παραίνεσις dicitur; *** poena adhibetur castigandi atque emendandi gratiâ; ut is qui fortuito deliquit, attentior fiat, correctiorque. Altera est quam ii, qui vocabula ista curiosius diviserunt, τιμωρίαν appellant. Ea causa animadvertendi est, *** dignitas auctoritasque ejus, in quem est peccatum, tuenda est, ne praetermissa animadversio contemtum ejus pariat, et honorem levet: idcircoque id ei vocabulum a conservatione honoris factum putant.’ There is a profound commentary on these words in Göschel’s Zerstreute Blätter, part 2, p. 343–360; compare too an instructive note in Wyttenbach’s Animadd. in Plutarch. vol. xii. p. 776." Trench's New Testament Synonyms :: vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.
So in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:
"The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." Strong's #2849 - κολάζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
In addition to those, under the section on κολάζω in TDNT, J. Schneider notes regarding "inscr. given by Steinleitner from Phrygian and Lydian monuments of the imperial period" that in "these inscriptions the sins punished by deity are those against the deity itself, e.g. violations of the sacred cultic laws. The deity smites the offender with sickness and infirmity, or even punishes himself and his family with death. The sinner can win back the grace of the deity only by open confession of his guilt. In this way alone can he be liberated from sickness and misfortune."
TDNT adds regarding Philo's view of the "legislative power of God" that this "power divides into two branches, the one for the rewarding of the good and the other for the punishment of sinners. Philo's view of God includes the insight that in God mercy is older than punishment (Deus Imm.,76) and that God would rather forgive than punish (Spec.Leg., II,196...). Punishment is for those who are not amenable to reason (Agric.,40). Thus punishment may seem to be the greatest evil, but it is to be regarded as the greatest blessing for fools, loc. cit. This is a Stoic view" ("Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", TDNT, ed. G. Kittel, Vol.3, p.815).
The "New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis" (NIDNTTE, ed. Moises Silva, 2014, Vol. II, p.716-718) concurs with TDNT's remarks above.
NIDTTE also refers to the 5 NT occurrences of the "derived vb. κολαφίζω" (kolaphizo, Strongs # 2852), "to strike (with the fist), fig. torment". It is used twice of "the Jewish leaders who struck Jesus during his trial before the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:67 = Mark 14:65)." (NIDTTE, p.718).
"Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him," (Mt.26:67; NASB).
There are no indications of an intent to correct Jesus via such actions by these evil human beings. Rather it seems vindictive or sadistic. Likewise with the occurrences of kolaphizo at 1 Pet.2:20 & 1 Cor.4:11, does the "buffeting" or ""to strike (with the fist), fig. torment" have no hint of correction.
In all 4 cases of kolaphizo mentioned so far, they all are at the hands of men & do not indicate a corrective or beneficial purpose to those receiving such "torments". However, in the 5th occurrence of this word in the New Testament, that changes.
In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:
"7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."
In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?

This long, relatively off-point quotation is an example of the bogus tactic of argument called "Throwing the Elephant":

"What does it mean to “throw the elephant”? A person responds to an argument by dumping loads of seemingly relevant information on it, calls it a “refutation,” and declares himself the winner, all the while hoping his opponent won’t notice how faulty much of the information is."

The fact of the matter is that the Greek word "kolasis," rendered "punishment" in Matthew 25:46, is so rendered correctly. W.E, Vine's "Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words," Arndt and Gingrich's "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," Moulton and Milligan's "The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, Joseph Thayer's "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," and Gerhard Kittel's "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" all agree that "kolasis" is properly rendered "punishment" in Matthew 25:46. And they aren't the only biblical language scholars who think so.

But, again, this is self-evident in the parallel Matthew employs:

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Since the punishment of the wicked is as never-ending as the never-ending eternal life of the righteous, corrective "pruning" cannot be in view. Such rehabilitative "punishment" would not be, obviously, never-ending. If the punishment is corrective, at some point the correction would be accomplished and the punishment would end. But the parallel in Matthew 25:46 is very clear that the punishment is as permanent as the eternal life of the righteous is permanent.


You say potential savior, Paul says Savior, you change what Paul says to suite you own doctrine.

Nope. As I pointed out, Paul qualifies his own words, making, essentially, the same qualification I did.

And if you read all of 1 tim 4 you will see Paul telling tim to beware if doctrines of devils the proceed to tell tim exactly what we are commanded to teach. Thus according to Paul that which you believe is a doctrine of devils.

Why do your sort always eventually resort to this particular accusation? It's so...cliche - and false.

you need to really do a study on atonement, because your lack of knowledge is showing.

Well, instead of just saying so, prove it. Show how my "lack of knowledge is showing."
 
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aiki

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Mt.25:46 contrasts two destinies, one to aionion life & the other to aionion punishment (or correction). If the aion (eon/age) in view is the millennial aion, then the verse says nothing about final destinies, but only contrasting millennial destinies.

Matthew 25:46 offers a contrast in destinies but a parallel in the permanency of those destinies. The eternal life of the righteous is not the "millenial aion" and the verse is not contrasting millienial destinies. This is pure speculation on your part without any ground in the verse or surrounding context. And very well-known and highly respected Bible scholars deny the "eon/age" rendering of "everlasting" and "eternal."

Concerning aionios and aidios:

W.E Vine explains:

"AIONIOS - describes duration, either undefined but not endless as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the N.T.
The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the N.T. save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit,. 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15 where only in the N.T. it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14, and of the redemption affected by Christ, Hebrews 9:12...The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

AIDIOS: see EVERLASTING.

"denotes everlasting (from aei, ever), Romans 1:20, R.V., "everlasting," for A.V., "eternal"; Jude 6, A.V. and R.V., "everlasting." Aionios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios "everlasting." While aionios ...negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness."

(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.)

"Indeed, the adjective aionian in this verse (Matthew 25:46) means "everlasting, without end"...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God...What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous...It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked."
(Reasoning From the Scripture with Jehovah's Witnesses - by Ron Rhodes)


That interpretation merely assumes what it has failed to provide any evidence or proof for, that aionion in Mt.25:46 means "eternal" in both of its occurrences.

See above. It is also, as I said, the natural, straightforward reading of the verse
And what you think is "its clear import" is just your opinion. You failed to provide any evidence or proof against my proposed interpretation.

Nope. See above.

I could just as easily claim Christ offers no hint to the contrary, i.e. no hint that the aionion punishment/chastening is to be "everlasting". As I detailed in another post to you, the Greek word Christ chose for "punishment" can refer to a corrective chastening.

Nope. See my last post to you.
 
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What I've wondered is what hell were the devils afraid of being sent to? They didn't want to be tormented-early, nor destroyed/same thing. I find it odd for that to be feared at the time of Jesus Christ, because the lake of fire did not, nor yet does it exist to put them in it. If they were afraid of joining other evil angels that went down to hell, then what kind of torment was feared? It doesn't say that are being burned, but are chained as to darkness till judgment time comes.

The rich man should have been intelligent enough to know that a bit of water on a finger would not last long that is afar off and passed heat/a flame to get to him in order to cool his tongue. He seemed to think that water still was refreshing even in hell, but he couldn't get to it. I think he was with his family that had died...and moved toward where Abraham was being seen. I don't think we have a scene of he is just a few moments in hell for the entire story. He has seen water...anything that is the area clear to afar off where Abraham and Lazarus were. Abraham referred to - they - as being on each side of the great gulf.

Indeed there are many interesting possibilities to ponder in the "Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man." I always wondered when this story might take place chronologically in the Bible. We know that Abraham said to the rich man that his brothers (who were still alive) have Moses and the prophets. While some have suggested that this was a reference to the Law or the Torah (the five books of Moses), I believe it is also possible that Abraham was speaking plainly and that the rich man died during the time when Moses his two prophets were alive. For Aaron himself was a prophet (Exodus 7:1); And Miriam who was Aaron’s sister was a prophetess (Exodus 15:20). So technically, all three of them could be referred to as Moses and the prophets.

If such is the case, then there is chance that the story could have taken place some time after the writing of Deuteronomy 15:7-11 was penned and then preached.

7 "If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11).​

Apparently, Moses message of helping the poor, fell on deaf ears in regards to the rich man (unfortunately). For he did not help Lazarus at his own gates.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I do not know why it is plural at the beginning, then singular as to be tormented by a flame. I have wondered -torments/does that mean he heard or saw others being hurt and/or, does it mean that he moved closer to Abraham? He did not say --we are tormented by this flame. Yet, others were there, because Abraham mentioned - they =as to being on both sides of the great gulf.

Yes, it appears in Luke 16:26 that Abraham is referring to more than one person present around the rich man. I imagine he is not alone in his torment and many are seeking to cross over but they cannot.
 
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This verse, and many others you listed are all about wicked men dying the first type of death. The are still on the earth and doing evil acts before they perish/die.

So you think the blast of God with them perishing and them being consumed by the breath of His nostrils happens tons of times each day?

It sounds like a major final one time thing to me.

You said:
Bodies are not ashes. Isaiah 66 shows that even on the new earth the wicked are still carcasses. Their bodies do not burn up =get consumed in the lake of fire -where their worm shall never die.

First, carcasses in the real world are dead bodies and they are not zombies or the living dead. A person needs to have a fanciful imagination to imagine that dead carcasses are living. Second, Isaiah 66:16 says that they are slain by God. This pictures death along with the corpses. Three, the fire that is not quenched is in reference to how the fire will not go out until they are dead and they are burned up corpses. Their worm shall not die in the aftermath shall not die until they consumed up the remains. There will be no trace or hope left for the wicked. They will be gone. God is not going to torture people beyond what the crimes call for. That would be unfair and unjust of God to do that. God is good and fair in everything He does. Torturing the wicked alive for all eternity is not morally correct. The wicked would have to eternally sin against God, and that is not possible. They only lived for a finite amount of time.
 
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FineLinen

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No my friend you simply need a little help with Greek translations. The Greek word aiṓnios (G166) and aiṓn (G165) not only mean age but also mean eternal or everlasting.

Dear BNR: You will find Pneuma does NOT need help with the Greek translations and brother Vine will not help you in this regards.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless.

The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios.

Kolasis aionios
, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

If you persist in your assumption I will ask you one simple question>>>>>>

What does the phrase pro chronon aionion, mean according to you and brother Vine?
 
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FineLinen

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THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE

The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this “love” is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in “hell” if we refuse this love.

What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God’s!

For one would think that God’s love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of.

It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches’ ‘gospel of love,’ and gives this ‘gospel’ the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God.

I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man’s arrogant illusion called ‘free will.’ -Robert Short-
 
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SarahsKnight

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well He doesn't ... this is a mis-teaching and causes more stress, lack of trust in God, and keeps people from coming to God more than anything I know of.

In the very end, God will totally destroy all the wicked, satan and his minions. God is NOT a sadist/terrorist.

A-MEN. I have been passive-aggressively condemned by many - thankfully none of which were my closest friends or family or other loved ones - might I add, for believing the plain wording of Scripture that the end for unbelievers is destruction. I guess some Christians are really all about the grace and love of God, but only where they are concerned, and not so much for their enemies who may not believe in Christ. Oh no, for the enemies, anything less than eternally ongoing (and utterly pointless, for God's wrath is never assuaged and sin is kept in some form in existence forever this way) torture makes God out to be too "nice".
 
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FineLinen

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A-MEN. I have been passive-aggressively condemned by many - thankfully none of which were my closest friends or family or other loved ones - might I add, for believing the plain wording of Scripture that the end for unbelievers is destruction. I guess some Christians are really all about the grace and love of God, but only where they are concerned, and not so much for their enemies who may not believe in Christ. Oh no, for the enemies, anything less than eternally ongoing (and utterly pointless, for God's wrath is never assuaged and sin is kept in some form in existence forever this way) torture makes God out to be too "nice".

Dear Sarah: The plain wording for destruction is apollumi. Perhaps it would be interesting to behold what apollumi in "plain wording" means?

GREEK WORD STUDIES ἀπόλλυμι, 'apollumi' for 'Perish, Destroy'

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he apollumi one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is apollumi, until he find it?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."
 
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Dkh587

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I started looking into soul annihilation lately, and I must say, that biblically, especially from a foundation based on the Law & Prophets, it is not true that the wicked are tormented forever.

You can only use a select few verses in the New Testament to argue for eternal torment, but the overwhelming majority of verses regarding the destruction of the wicked indicate DESTROYING the wicked by fire, and being tormented forever alive. Eternal life/living forever is for the righteous.

I don’t believe in universalism, as the scriptures clearly indicate the wicked are burned up by God’s eternal fire.

God told Adam he would DIE - not that he would burn alive forever. To die is to cease from existence, not burn forever. The wicked will burn, but not forever.
 
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FineLinen

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I started looking into soul annihilation lately, and I must say, that biblically, especially from a foundation based on the Law & Prophets, it is not true that the wicked are tormented forever.

You can only use a select few verses in the New Testament to argue for eternal torment, but the overwhelming majority of verses regarding the destruction of the wicked indicate DESTROYING the wicked by fire, and being tormented forever alive. Eternal life/living forever is for the righteous.

I don’t believe in universalism, as the scriptures clearly indicate the wicked are burned up by God’s eternal fire.

God told Adam he would DIE - not that he would burn alive forever. To die is to cease from existence, not burn forever. The wicked will burn, but not forever.

Dear Dkh: I do not believe in "universalism" either! On the other hand what the prophets declare regarding the Restitution of all things grips me with a passion,

This will likely be a silly question for you, but can you articulate the difference between our God who IS consuming fire, & the Lake of theion rooted in Theos ?
 
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