How Messed Up Are People?

[Tree of Life]

A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.
   
   
2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.
   
   
3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).

What do you say?

 

[Shawn Stuart]

Human beings are totally messed up. We are poor miserable sinners. Apart from the grace of Christ there is no hope for us.

 

[Mantishand]

I remember evil thoughts when I was a young child. Selfish, evil thoughts. I think we are born with an evil heart and though we don't start as sinners it doesn't take very long. There is no righteous, no not one.

 

[Tree of Life]

Human beings are totally messed up. We are poor miserable sinners. Apart from the grace of Christ there is no hope for us.

I agree! Does this suggest that we are in need of Christ to give us a new heart before we are able to respond to him?

 

[Tree of Life]

I remember evil thoughts when I was a young child. Selfish, evil thoughts. I think we are born with an evil heart and though we don't start as sinners it doesn't take very long. There is no righteous, no not one.

I agree! Do you think this suggests that our hearts are unable to respond to God and we need him to give us new hearts?

 

[Shawn Stuart]

I agree! Does this suggest that we are in need of Christ to give us a new heart before we are able to respond to him?

Yes we must be regenerated by the water, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

He gives us a new heart and renews our mind.

 

[trophy33]

I think we have sinful inclinations because of our bodies and because of the world we are growing up in.

But our will must say "yes" to it, for it to be a sin.

 

[Tree of Life]

I think we have sinful inclinations because of our bodies and because of the world we are growing up in.

Jesus had a body like ours and grew up in our world. Do you believe he had sinful inclinations?

But our will must say "yes" to it, for it to be sin.

Says who?

 

[EzekielsWheels]

Jesus had a body like ours and grew up in our world. Do you believe he had sinful inclinations?



Says who?

I think she's trying to say we are tempted but it's not a sin unless you yield to that temptation. Jesus suffered temptations but never yielded to them.

 

[trophy33]

Jesus had a body like ours and grew up in our world. Do you believe he had sinful inclinations?

If he had body like ours, he had sexuality as we do and other things. But He always won over it.

Says who?

Can you sin while uncoucious? I do not think so.

 

[Tree of Life]

If he had body like ours, he had sexuality as we do and other things. Therefore, yes. But He always won over it.

There's nothing sinful about sex per se. But the fact that we are tempted to express our sexuality in sinful ways shows that we have sinful hearts. Jesus did not have a sinful heart and had no sinful desires.

Can you sin while uncoucious? I do not think so.

I'm sure a sinner like myself could figure out a way to sin while unconscious.

 

[bcbsr]

A lot of the debate about salvation, justification, faith, and good works comes back to this question. Everyone knows that people have a sin problem, but how far down does it go? How badly has sin affected the human race? The traditional responses have been...

1. Totally Messed Up - This was the view of Augustine contra Pelagius. Pelagius taught that sin was not an inherited condition of mankind, but a personal choice. Everyone was born neutral with the freedom to choose either good or evil. Everyone had the natural, God-given ability to be good. Therefore, salvation came as a result of our own efforts to be good. Contrary to this, Augustine taught that sin has totally messed people up and apart from God's grace there is no hope for salvation. Calvin followed Augustine and taught that God must regenerate a person in order for them to respond to him.
   
   
2. Partly Messed Up - The Old Catholic church initially adopted Augustine's view but later drifted into a form of semi-Pelagianism. The Roman Catholic church's position today is that sin has sort of messed up people, but not completely. All people have the ability to respond to God and so salvation is a result of God's grace, but also man's spontaneous response. God and man work together for a person to be saved. This also has become the Arminian view.
   
   
3. Not Messed Up - This is the view of Pelagius (as described above) and many liberal Christians today. There is no original sin and sin is not an inherited condition. It's perfectly normal for humans to be imperfect and God does not expect perfection from us (liberal Christianity). OR God does demand that we be good and we do have this power within us. Therefore we are saved through tapping into our own inner goodness and being the people we know we can be (Pelagius and also some liberals).

What do you say?

Rather than reference post-Biblical theologians, I believe what the Bible says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." Rom 3:23-25

In response to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" I respond, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

Who ends up coming to Jesus, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." John 6:45 Hearing and learning is a process. So there is a process involved prior to coming to faith in Christ. And the rhetoric here implies one's cooperation to listen and to learn. The rhetoric the Scriptures use in this regard is inconsistent with the postulations of Calvinism.

And no, cooperation, that is synergism, is NOT semi-pelagianism, contrary to the accusations of Calvinists who don't know what they're really talking about.

 

[trophy33]

I'm sure a sinner like myself could figure out a way to sin while unconscious.

Only in a case that you want to sin just for the act of sinning. In this case you would prepare some conditions to sin even while unconscious.
But if your sinning is just loosing struggle with your body and with the world, then its a different situation. A righteous man sins because of his weakness, an evil man sins because of his evil heart.

 

[Tree of Life]

Only in a case that you want to sin just for the act of sinning. In this case you would prepare some conditions to sin even while unconscious.
But if your sinning is just loosing struggle with your body and with the world, then its a different situation. Good man sins because of his weakness, evil man sins because of his evil heart.

Yuck. I see in here a gnosticism which rejects the goodness of the material world. Good man sins because of his weakness? If anyone sins, Jesus says, he is a slave to sin. Good people don't sin. Sinners sin.

 

[trophy33]

Good people don't sin. Sinners sin.

So good men are sinless?

 

[Tree of Life]

So good men are sinless?

None are good except God alone.

 

[Tree of Life]

Rather than reference post-Biblical theologians, I believe what the Bible says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." Rom 3:23-25

In response to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" I respond, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

Who ends up coming to Jesus, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." John 6:45 Hearing and learning is a process. So there is a process involved prior to coming to faith in Christ. And the rhetoric here implies one's cooperation to listen and to learn. The rhetoric the Scriptures use in this regard is inconsistent with the postulations of Calvinism.

And no, cooperation, that is synergism, is NOT semi-pelagianism, contrary to the accusations of Calvinists who don't know what they're really talking about.

So you think that people are sort of messed up like the Roman Catholics and Arminians?

 

[trophy33]

Yuck. I see in here a gnosticism which rejects the goodness of the material world

I am not talking about material world as such (sun, moon, trees, mountains...), but specifically about our animal bodies.

Our body fights against spirit.

 

[Tree of Life]

I am not talking about material world as such (sun, moon, trees, mountains...), but specifically about our animal bodies.

Our body fights against spirit.

Yuck! Go away gnosticism!

 

[trophy33]

None are good except God alone.

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
Mt 12:35

Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man
Lk 23:50

He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.
Acts 11:24

The backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied with his.
Proverb 14:14