I need some advice please

[112358]

Wow, thank you. Quite controlling.

With reference to the OP and Scotty's interaction with members of the COC, I do not believe them to be of this "offshoot" called ICC. I could be wrong, but it does not seem so.

I do not believe any mainstream COC would claim association with ICC, fwiw. Otherwise the Wikipedia entry from which the above was cut and pasted is generally pretty accurate, especially with regard to the history of the restoration movement in America.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nevermind. .

 

[112358]

Allow me to try and explain something.

I used to be Muslim, and when I first met my husband it was over faith discussions. He was Christian.

In knowing my husband as a person you could see Jesus in him, in his actions, and the more I got to know him the more I wanted to know about his God.

As we discussed Christianity, and the difference between the Christian God and the Islamic god, the more in awe I was of this God of Christians.

At one point I could honestly say that I really liked that God a lot, definitely seemed a true God and a worthy God.

But as much I as liked this God, I couldn't be a Christian because I wasn't understanding enough about the reason for salvation and why Jesus had to die for us to be forgiven. There was a definite mental block there for me.

So I put the thought of following the Christian God on the shelf, although I did stop praying salat, and just went about life per usual..

Well, one day it all came together for me, out of the blue about two years later when I hadn't even thought about matters of religion in so long, and in the very same minute I understood and believed I was also saved.

Belief is something that comes from God. We can pray, we can go get baptised, we can attend church and help the poor, all without belief.. but belief itself comes from God alone.

Salvation isn't something we do - it's something God did and our role in it is 100% gift recipient.

So long as we do things in order to be saved, we won't be saved. Salvation comes from above, not from ourselves, lest what would we need a savior for?

Hi Hazelponi. I appreciate the thoughtful explanation. But I disagree with it in a fundamental way. If belief, as you say, comes from God alone, then God must be a respecter of persons, because obviously not all people come to believe. This is where some problematic ideas like election, predestination and universalism originate.

But we know that God is not a respecter of persons, that is, He does not show partiality to one individual or group over another. He made the gift of salvation available to all of mankind through the sacrifice of His only Son. That was the plan from before He spoke the universe into existence!

But we must make a choice to accept the gift or not.

If I write you a check for $1,000 - but you never endorse or cash the check, have you accepted the gift? Will you receive any of the benefits I intended for you to enjoy by imparting the gift?

Our obedience to the commands of God Almighty are our endorsement of His gift. It is how we come back into His fellowship after we separated ourselves from Him by violating His perfect holiness through sin. It is how we enter into the only place where His saving grace is found...His Church.

Belief is WHY we do it, obedience is HOW we do it.

I can't fully explain why God chose baptism as the vehicle through which one comes into contact with the atoning blood of Christ. I just know that He did because that's what His Word teaches. Read and study Romans 6 for a while and see if it helps your understanding.

He doesn't need our belief. He doesn't need our obedience, or baptism, or our repentance, or anything else to save us. I dare say He didn't even need for Christ to be sacrificed if that were His will, but He COMMANDED these things! That was His WILL for us!

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi Hazelponi. I appreciate the thoughtful explanation. But I disagree with it in a fundamental way. If belief, as you say, comes from God alone, then God must be a respecter of persons, because obviously not all people come to believe. This is where some problematic ideas like election, predestination and universalism originate.

But we know that God is not a respecter of persons, that is, He does not show partiality to one individual or group over another. He made the gift of salvation available to all of mankind through the sacrifice of His only Son. That was the plan from before He spoke the universe into existence!

But we must make a choice to accept the gift or not.

If I write you a check for $1,000 - but you never endorse or cash the check, have you accepted the gift? Will you receive any of the benefits I intended for you to enjoy by imparting the gift?

Our obedience to the commands of God Almighty are our endorsement of His gift. It is how we come back into His fellowship after we separated ourselves from Him by violating His perfect holiness through sin. It is how we enter into the only place where His saving grace is found...His Church.

Belief is WHY we do it, obedience is HOW we do it.

I can't fully explain why God chose baptism as the vehicle through which one comes into contact with the atoning blood of Christ. I just know that He did because that's what His Word teaches. Read and study Romans 6 for a while and see if it helps your understanding.

He doesn't need our belief. He doesn't need our obedience, or baptism, or our repentance, or anything else to save us. I dare say He didn't even need for Christ to be sacrificed if that were His will, but He COMMANDED these things! That was His WILL for us!

Actually, as I am a believer in reformed doctrine, then you and I will have to disagree on this issue.

I am firm in my belief that there is no tower of Babel I can build to get myself into heaven.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don’t believe we can debate in the Advice sub forum. Everything has to specifically address the OP topic and be to the OP

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

As a person who has moved among Restorationist circles, specifically in the sister denomination to the Church of Christ, I would just suggest that you tell them that you agree to disagree. One of my former pastors came out of and left the CoC, and he said to me that there are some things taught by the CoC churches that sometimes border on the cultic. Maybe think of your dealing with them by way of this analogy: the CoC is to my sister denomination, the Christian Church/Instrumental, what some hardcore Independent Baptist churches are to the Southern Baptists.

So, while I personally do see that works are a part of faith, in my more philosophically/historically moderated, quasi-ecumenical view of Christian doctrine---and being that I've also moved around in Southern Baptist circles---I wouldn't call a brother like you a 'heretic' just because I'm prone to saying, "Hey, good works count for something in our faith!" But those in the CoC may differ quite a bit with you [and me] on how they think these discussions should be handled (as you've unfortunately find out when interacting with your friend).

You, could turn hermeneutical tricks on them, though, just to make it interesting (within reason): Ask them what the relationship is between the Bible and Holy Spirit. I suggest this because my former pastor told me that some people in the CoC might even claim that the Bible 'IS' the Holy Spirit. Surely, if there's something heretical that could be cited, that would be one of those things.

On the other hand, perhaps it would be more useful for you and your friend to sit down together and agree to read and study an entire Pauline letter, discussing each passage as you go. For example, maybe a robust hermeneutical study of Ephesians would be good for the both of you to do together, with the requirement that you both read and study some outside sources that challenge each of your respective views on the content within the letter to the Ephesians, or on the nature of Faith and Scripture on the whole.

 

[danielmears]

Actually, as I am a believer in reformed doctrine, then you and I will have to disagree on this issue.

I am firm in my belief that there is no tower of Babel I can build to get myself into heaven.

Saved by grace is certainly the gift but once this is received we are born of the spirit! Perhaps even simultaneously..I wrote on this a few months ago.Born of the Spirit

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Point them in the Direction of this Forum for a good debate ;-)

 

[Southernscotty]

Faith and works are mutual and I have no problem with works being done James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

My problem is with others saying "anything" other than Jesus Christ shed Blood is needed, because His Blood is the ultimate cleansing agent and He alone provided it.
God sent His only Son and we can take NO credit for this precious gift at all, because not a one of us sorry ole outfits deserve to be saved.
Once a soul is truly and honestly washed by the Blood and saved, Those works will come out of love.

 

[notreligus]

So your excuses on not teaching to do good works is adultery?

A good work is giving to the poor, feeding them, giving them a home, clothji9ng them, that is a good work.

Every one gives to the church, so I would not call that a good deed.

I would rather teach to do good works AND SO SHOULD YOU.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I have been referring to salvation; you are referring to discipleship. Some folk confuse the two but they are not one in the same.

 

[notreligus]

Isn’t the Church of Christ an off shoot of Mornmonism

The connection is through Sidney Rigdon, a former associate of Alexander Campbell. Rigden used to accompany Campbell on horseback as they traveled to various Campbell speaking engagements, usually debates. Rigdon lived in Kirtland, Ohio. He had his own followers who believed in community, or a communal form of "unity" among believers. Campbell disagreed. When Joseph Smith was ordered to leave New York or be jailed his next stop was Kirtland, Ohio. He met Sidney Rigdon there and Rigdon agreed to become part of this new Mormon group and brought his followers along with him. Mormons debate this but many historians believe that Rigdon, one very trained in theology, wrote all or most of the Book of Mormon.

The Campbells were first Baptists in America; then they left the Baptists, along with their Campbellite brethren; the Campbellites joined with the Stoneites in 1832 and formed the Disciples of Christ; David Lipscomb thought the Disciples were too worldly with their northern spoils of the Civil War and he led a splinter group to form the Churches of Christ, which became an official Christian denomination in 1906 (was registered with the Federal Government).

 

[A_Thinker]

I have been referring to salvation; you are referring to discipleship. Some folk confuse the two but they are not one in the same.

I agree ...

 

[ToBeLoved]

The connection is through Sidney Rigdon, a former associate of Alexander Campbell. Rigden used to accompany Campbell on horseback as they traveled to various Campbell speaking engagements, usually debates. Rigdon lived in Kirtland, Ohio. He had his own followers who believed in community, or a communal form of "unity" among believers. Campbell disagreed. When Joseph Smith was ordered to leave New York or be jailed his next stop was Kirtland, Ohio. He met Sidney Rigdon there and Rigdon agreed to become part of this new Mormon group and brought his followers along with him. Mormons debate this but many historians believe that Rigdon, one very trained in theology, wrote all or most of the Book of Mormon.

The Campbells were first Baptists in America; then they left the Baptists, along with their Campbellite brethren; the Campbellites joined with the Stoneites in 1832 and formed the Disciples of Christ; David Lipscomb thought the Disciples were too worldly with their northern spoils of the Civil War and he led a splinter group to form the Churches of Christ, which became an official Christian denomination in 1906 (was registered with the Federal Government).

I heard a different story. But maybe your is in more detail or something

I thought they split from Mormonism because every leader was suppose to be a descent of Joseph Smith and when the Mormons chose the second guy that took them to Utah that was not a descendant of Joseph Smith they split off.

Also I never heard this Campbell person and I looked into Mormonism a while back pretty good. Hmmm

 

[Danielwright2311]

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I have been referring to salvation; you are referring to discipleship. Some folk confuse the two but they are not one in the same.

I understand that issue, but what your saying is not to do good works as they do not save you.

The truth is if you are saved then you will do good works.

 

[Radagast]

as I am a grace by faith believer.

And you're absolutely right. If you're interested, there are any number of good books, but quite frankly, I'd just tell this "Dr friend" that he isn't welcome in your house.

 

[notreligus]

I understand that issue, but what your saying is not to do good works as they do not save you.

The truth is if you are saved then you will do good works.

I quoted the Apostle Paul who said that we have been created to do good works in Christ. I agree with him. So, I understand why you keep insisting that I'm saying something that I'm not saying.

If you do good works before you are saved in hopes that God will grant you unmerited favor then you are wasting your time and effort. Grace is granted to those who put their faith in Christ's own obedience. This is God's choice. You don't get to choose how you're saved and neither do I.

Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

I suggest that you read and study the entire Fifth Chapter of Romans. This is a good summary of the Gospel.

 

[notreligus]

I heard a different story. But maybe your is in more detail or something

I thought they split from Mormonism because every leader was suppose to be a descent of Joseph Smith and when the Mormons chose the second guy that took them to Utah that was not a descendant of Joseph Smith they split off.

Also I never heard this Campbell person and I looked into Mormonism a while back pretty good. Hmmm

Hmmm

Here's where you can read about Alexander Campbell:

Restoration Movement Resources

The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement, Paul M. Bowers, Editor

American Origins of Churches of Christ, Three Essays On Restoration History, by Hughes, Hatch, and Harrell, Jr., Introduction by Foster, Douglas A. Foster, Ed.

The Christadelphians in North America, by Charles H. Lippy

Campbellism Examined & Reexamined, by Jeremiah P. Jeter

Cane Ridge: America’s Pentecost, by Paul K. Conkin

American Originals: Homemade Varieties of Christianity, by Paul K. Conkin

A Religious History of the American People, by Sydney E. Ahlstrom

New Testament History: Acts Commentary, Gareth L. Reese

Christians Only: A History of the Restoration Movement, by James D. Murch

In Search of Christian Unity: A History of the Restoration Movement, by Henry E. Webb

Union in Truth: An Interpretive History of the Restoration Movement, by James B. North

A Distinct History of the Churches of Christ in the Twentieth Century, by Robert E. Hooper

The Search for the Ancient Order, Four Volumes, by Earl I. West

Reviving the Ancient Faith: The Story of the Churches of Christ in America, by Richard T. Hughes

The Restoration Movement, by Bob L. Ross

Campbellism: Its History and Heresies, by Bob L. Ross

Acts 2:38 and Baptismal Remission, By Bob L. Ross

The Perfect Law of Liberty: Elias Smith and the Providential Histry of America,
by Michael G. Kenny

America In Crimson Red: The Baptist History Of America, by James R. Bellar

(This book details the Stone-Campbell error which swept through frontier Baptist churches.)

Restoration Roots, by Lynne A. McMillon

The Life of James O’Kelly and the Early History of the Christian Church in the South,
by Wilbur E. MacClenny

A History of the Christian Church in the South, by Durward T. Stokes and William T. Scott

Quest for a Christian America, David E. Harrell, Jr.

The Social Sources of Division in the Disciples of Christ, 1865-1900, by David E. Harrell, Jr.

The Disciples of Christ: A History, by Winfred E. Garrison and Albert T. DeGroot

Journey of Faith: A History of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), by Lester G. McAllister and William E. Tucker

The Stone-Campbell Movement: An Anecdotal History of Three Churches, by Leroy Garrett

Churches of Christ Libraries and Bible Colleges, Church of Christ Colleges and Universities

Disciples of Christ Libraries and Bible Colleges

Christian Church Libraries and Bible Colleges, Christian Colleges and Universities

Internet searches of the Founders, Restoration Movement, Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Christian Church, Stone-Campbell, J.W. McGarvey, etc. Look for reprints of The Millennial Harbinger, for example.


Also, Alexander Campbell published his own edition of the New Testament, called The Living Oracles.

He published two newsletters, The Christian Baptist, for sixteen years, and The Millennial Harbinger, for over twenty years.

A summary of his theology is in his book called, The Christian System.

Do some Google searches because you might find pdf versions of his books, and sometimes you can find compilations of his Millennial Harbinger newsletters in pdf format.

Let me know when you've read all of these and you have done further research.

 

[lastofall]

It is actually of both: the grace by faith doctrine is true, yet many fail to realize the "by faith" part of the matter, which is that faith is to submit to and rely upon the Word of God, which is what "hearing" means in (Romans 10:17) that faith cometh by hearing the Word of God: hearing is not mere listening, rather it again is to submit to and rely upon God's Word. And this is indeed a work known as faithfulness. Therefore we are saved by grace through submitting to and relying upon the Word of God (i.e. Faith).

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hmmm

Here's where you can read about Alexander Campbell:

Restoration Movement Resources

The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement, Paul M. Bowers, Editor

American Origins of Churches of Christ, Three Essays On Restoration History, by Hughes, Hatch, and Harrell, Jr., Introduction by Foster, Douglas A. Foster, Ed.

The Christadelphians in North America, by Charles H. Lippy

Campbellism Examined & Reexamined, by Jeremiah P. Jeter

Cane Ridge: America’s Pentecost, by Paul K. Conkin

American Originals: Homemade Varieties of Christianity, by Paul K. Conkin

A Religious History of the American People, by Sydney E. Ahlstrom

New Testament History: Acts Commentary, Gareth L. Reese

Christians Only: A History of the Restoration Movement, by James D. Murch

In Search of Christian Unity: A History of the Restoration Movement, by Henry E. Webb

Union in Truth: An Interpretive History of the Restoration Movement, by James B. North

A Distinct History of the Churches of Christ in the Twentieth Century, by Robert E. Hooper

The Search for the Ancient Order, Four Volumes, by Earl I. West

Reviving the Ancient Faith: The Story of the Churches of Christ in America, by Richard T. Hughes

The Restoration Movement, by Bob L. Ross

Campbellism: Its History and Heresies, by Bob L. Ross

Acts 2:38 and Baptismal Remission, By Bob L. Ross

The Perfect Law of Liberty: Elias Smith and the Providential Histry of America,
by Michael G. Kenny

America In Crimson Red: The Baptist History Of America, by James R. Bellar

(This book details the Stone-Campbell error which swept through frontier Baptist churches.)

Restoration Roots, by Lynne A. McMillon

The Life of James O’Kelly and the Early History of the Christian Church in the South,
by Wilbur E. MacClenny

A History of the Christian Church in the South, by Durward T. Stokes and William T. Scott

Quest for a Christian America, David E. Harrell, Jr.

The Social Sources of Division in the Disciples of Christ, 1865-1900, by David E. Harrell, Jr.

The Disciples of Christ: A History, by Winfred E. Garrison and Albert T. DeGroot

Journey of Faith: A History of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), by Lester G. McAllister and William E. Tucker

The Stone-Campbell Movement: An Anecdotal History of Three Churches, by Leroy Garrett

Churches of Christ Libraries and Bible Colleges, Church of Christ Colleges and Universities

Disciples of Christ Libraries and Bible Colleges

Christian Church Libraries and Bible Colleges, Christian Colleges and Universities

Internet searches of the Founders, Restoration Movement, Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Christian Church, Stone-Campbell, J.W. McGarvey, etc. Look for reprints of The Millennial Harbinger, for example.


Also, Alexander Campbell published his own edition of the New Testament, called The Living Oracles.

He published two newsletters, The Christian Baptist, for sixteen years, and The Millennial Harbinger, for over twenty years.

A summary of his theology is in his book called, The Christian System.

Do some Google searches because you might find pdf versions of his books, and sometimes you can find compilations of his Millennial Harbinger newsletters in pdf format.

Let me know when you've read all of these and you have done further research.

Thanks, but I have little interest in off shoots of Mormonism