One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[Dkh587]

No. You really mean if I'm not teaching the covenant given to Israel alone at Sinai, I'm teaching disobedience. The plain fact is I as a Christian ain't obligated to that covenant, therefore I can't break (sin against) it. Grace doesn't push the right to act wickedly. Neither does the covenant of grace require obligation to the covenant of law.

The new covenant is with Israel and Judah alone - Jeremiah 31:31-33

What I mean is what the scriptures teach: anybody teaching disobedience to the commandments of God is teaching lawlessness and wickedness.

You are teaching disobedience to God’s commandments according to God, Moses, the Prophets, Jesus & the Apostles.

It’s really that simple - a person either teaches obedience or disobedience to God’s commands.

If Jesus and the Apostles taught disobedience, then they taught wickedness and promoted sin. You accuse them of teaching their followers to sin and commit wickedness and disobey God’s law.

 

[ace of hearts]

No limits on God. God set His limits on us. It was God that set the limits on Adam and Eve. All they had to do was obey Him when He said to not eat of that one tree. But someone told them, they really had no such limits--they would not die. Obedience to God sets us free from the bondage to sin. Satan still says we will not die if we do what we want and disregard what God says. It's just that now He is saying we will not die that 2nd death. And if you think the laws of God are just words on stone--they are a revelation of His character.
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Levitical laws were not set in place until Zion. But that there was a sacrificial system since Adam and Eve is certainly in the bible or Cain and Abel would not have been making any such offering to God. And if it was only meant for them, no one else would have been making them. Abraham was doing them, Job was making sacrifices to God, and there was Melchizedec and tithes--These people didn't come up with these things on their own. The bible does not state every thing--it was an oral society back then---God spoke directly to those people.
Gen_8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Noah knew abut clean and unclean animals. They went into the ark by clean and unclean.

The Sabbath was set in place at creation.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jesus should know--He was there that creation day. To deny the Sabbath as set at creation is to deny the God of creation. He created it for us. At Zion He stated again the reason for the Sabbath --

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It was set at creation as a memorial of God's creative powers. It is He that created the world and it is He that decides what our duties to Him and each other are.
He gave His life for us in a very cruel manner, He gives us everything--He asks for one specific day a week for us to be spent solely with Him and for us to not work and the world has to argue about it because it interferes with their schedules.

This is religious babble.

 

[ace of hearts]

It was always the case that the animals were sacrificed to cleanse from sin.
Jesus fulfilled all the Levitical laws--all those that pointed to Him as the surficial Lamb. There was no further need for them. They can not cleanse from sin--His blood does which is what they always represented.

No animal sacrifice only put off the dealing with sin of mankind.

 

[ace of hearts]

God's Law is straightforwardly inclusive of all of the laws that He has given. None of the Mosaic laws originated with Moses, but rather Moses served as a mediator, where he wrote down everything that God commanded to without departing from it either to the right or to the left whereupon he then conveyed those commands to the Israelites. So all of the Mosaic laws are God's laws and they all have the same moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them, God commanded Moses to write them, or even if God had just spoken them without anyone writing them down. Changing the medium upon which they are written or where they are places does not change their moral authority or the content of what they require us to do.

God's commands are important foreshadows that are rich with teachings about Jesus and about God's plan of redemption. Jesus brings full substance to the foreshadows so that we can fully see what God was teaching us through them, which make them all the more important to continue to observe in remembrance of Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, but instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with these "mere shadows" he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast.

It is nonsensical for you to claim that being obedient to God's commands is not the same as being obedient to God. Jesus lived in completely obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it looks like to be obedient to God through Jesus Christ. We are being transformed by the Spirit to be more like Christ, who again lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are creating a false dichotomy between following the Law and following the Spirit.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commands, so obedience to God's Law has always been about living by faith and love and has never been about trying to become righteous through our own efforts. Again, if the Law were about being righteous through our own effort and God does not want us to become righteous through our own effort, then it would follow that God doesn't want His followers to obey His commands and that God can't be trust to lead us, which is absurd. Trying to become righteous through our own efforts has always been a perversion and a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Law. It was precisely that misunderstanding of the goal of the Law that caused the Israelites to fail to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30-10:4.



The Law is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His character traits, such a holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions, such as love, and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are to love as he loved. There is not much sense in someone wanting to obey God's command to love, but want nothing to do with obeying His instructions for how He wants us to love. So even if Jesus hadn't been under the Mosaic Covenant, then he still would have lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law because he still would have the same character traits. Jesus fulfilled the Law by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it by word and by example.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it links the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked. Jesus was sinless, so walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. Regardless of which covenant Jesus was under, as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). We do not need to become Jews in order to become followers of the Jewish Messiah, but we can't follow him by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example. You can't surrender and submit and be a servant of God by refusing to obey His laws, but rather obedience to His laws is the way to do that.

Please tell me why I've never felt a desire to observe the sabbath. Is it because I'm not a Christian? I claim to be a born again Christian in accordance with the Gospel of John. So why doesn't the Holy Spirit nudge me to keep the sabbath. Doesn't God love me or something? For your information I know about the sabbath by reading the Bible for years before coming to this site.

 

[ace of hearts]

Israel is inclusive of all righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel through faith in Messiah. In Isaiah 56:1-8, the Sabbath is clearly not intended just for Jews. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). So keeping the Sabbath is about acting in accordance with God's holiness, not about the nation of Israel. The God's Law was given as instructions for how to walk in His ways and to express His character traits, not as instructions for how to live a Jew. So while it is good to correctly understand whom a law was given to, it is not good to focus on that so much that you lose sight of whom it was given by.

The issue was that cimcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond what God commanded it for, which was in fact contrary to the purposes of God, so you should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying what the God we serve has command. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-7, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feasts, so yes, Gentiles also have the privilege and the delight of getting to honor Passover, and if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then that would be an appropriate reason for them to become circumcised. Gentiles do not need to become Jews in order to follow the Jewish Messiah of Judaism, but Gentiles can't follow him by refuse to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

Imagine a scenario where God never made any covenants with man, but simply gave instructions for our own good for how to walk in His ways and to righty live. Would you seek to have the privilege and the delight of getting to follow those instructions or would you want nothing to do with them?

Where in the New Covenant (NT) is the command to keep the sabbath?

 

[ace of hearts]

Legalism has nothing to do with any tradition.

I'm not fooled quite that easily.

 

[ace of hearts]

A man can not enter God’s rest if he does not keep the Sabbath of God holy as God commanded.

No because the Jews kept the sabbath and couldn't enter God's rest as the Scripture says. Jesus claims to sabbath keeping Jews He is the rest they don't have. Mat 11:28-30.

 

[ace of hearts]

The new covenant is with Israel and Judah alone - Jeremiah 31:31-33

What I mean is what the scriptures teach: anybody teaching disobedience to the commandments of God is teaching lawlessness and wickedness.

You are teaching disobedience to God’s commandments according to God, Moses, the Prophets, Jesus & the Apostles.

It’s really that simple - a person either teaches obedience or disobedience to God’s commands.

If Jesus and the Apostles taught disobedience, then they taught wickedness and promoted sin. You accuse them of teaching their followers to sin and commit wickedness and disobey God’s law.

Then the Gospel of John is wrong and gentiles were lied to in Acts when they ask how to be saved.

I ask how in light of the prophets - specifically Jeremiah and Hosea?

 

[mmksparbud]

Only for the casual or one with an agenda looking for a proof text. Unfortunately for you I'm a technical reader. Yes we're arguing about a technical point. No because the Lamb doesn't sit on the throne. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, the Father. See Eph 1:20.I first responded to a comment about creation and Who did what. So I must ask you the same question - why do you feel a need to bring up and and try to argue against consistency of Scripture?No after reading the context. Also wondering if that's all Christ is Lord of because of what you intend the selected out of context quote to mean. After all isn't Jesus the sole One responsible for creating the other days according to you?
You even highlighted the word "with." I rest my case because you testified against your self.

Don't understand the misconception. God and Jesus are one. God and Jesus were together at creation, it also says Jesus created everything that was created. The mystery of the Trinity is not something that one on this planet understands fully and we may never do so even when we gaze at them. I don't care how brilliant you think you are, scripture says Jesus created everything---and He and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one and were at creation. Jesus created each day, including the Sabbath and all 3 were there.

 

[Dkh587]

No because the Jews kept the sabbath and couldn't enter God's rest as the Scripture says. Jesus claims to sabbath keeping Jews He is the rest they don't have. Mat 11:28-30.

Actually, the Israelites were disobedient and were not able to enter into God’s rest. They did not enter because they were disobedient to God’s commands, which included keeping the Sabbath holy.

You can’t enter God’s rest if you are disobeying His commandments. This is laid out clearly throughout the entire Bible.

 

[ace of hearts]

Don't understand the misconception. God and Jesus are one. God and Jesus were together at creation, it also says Jesus created everything that was created. The mystery of the Trinity is not something that one on this planet understands fully and we may never do so even when we gaze at them. I don't care how brilliant you think you are, scripture says Jesus created everything---and He and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are one and were at creation. Jesus created each day, including the Sabbath and all 3 were there.

We have a disagreement. You won't show me how I'm wrong, at least yet. You also haven't provided anything contrary to Revelation 4 and 5 I posted to you. The Gospel of John and His other letters must agree with that. Otherwise the Scripture isn't inspired or those works aren't Scripture.

 

[ace of hearts]

Actually, the Israelites were disobedient and were not able to enter into God’s rest. They did not enter because they were disobedient to God’s commands, which included keeping the Sabbath holy.

You can’t enter God’s rest if you are disobeying His commandments. This is laid out clearly throughout the entire Bible.

That's not why the Scripture says they couldn't enter God's rest. Sorry.

 

[Dkh587]

Then the Gospel of John is wrong and gentiles were lied to in Acts when they ask how to be saved.

I ask how in light of the prophets - specifically Jeremiah and Hosea?

We were discussing how saved people lived, not how to be saved. Salvation is through faith, but not dead, disobedient faith.

 

[ace of hearts]

Actually, the Israelites were disobedient and were not able to enter into God’s rest. They did not enter because they were disobedient to God’s commands, which included keeping the Sabbath holy.

You can’t enter God’s rest if you are disobeying His commandments. This is laid out clearly throughout the entire Bible.

Aren't you claiming one can't be saved without keeping the covenant given exclusively to Israel? Wouldn't that be an addition to what I read Jesus saying in in John 3 and 5?

 

[Dkh587]

That's not why the Scripture says they couldn't enter God's rest. Sorry.

They didn’t trust God & as a result, they were disobedient.

God won’t turn us away if we obey His commands, but if we disobey Him, he will reject us.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you believe that Mormons are Christians? I'm not really sure what Mormons have to do with this discussion.

Very simple---they feel they are led of the Holy Spirit. The same one that is leading you. They claim Jesus as the Son of God. This website says they are not Christian---and I do not disagree. The point is how do you determine what Spirit is leading. For me it is a thus saith the Lord. Scripture does not contradict itself. Scripture says the commandments are in force and we can not be unrepentant sinners and still be saved. Sin is the transgression of the law. If there is sin--there is law. Believe what you want---unless you show me a verse that state we can be unrepentant sinners and still be saved----the law is still there and only through Jesus can we keep from transgressing the law.

 

[ace of hearts]

We were discussing how saved people lived, not how to be saved. Salvation is through faith, but not dead, disobedient faith.

IOW unsaved won't answer to God, because they aren't under His law. Get real. Your idea here is those who are saved are obligated to something that doesn't provide salvation. It can't take it away either. Rom 8

 

[ace of hearts]

They didn’t trust God & as a result, they were disobedient.

God won’t turn us away if we obey His commands, but if we disobey Him, he will reject us.

You can't provide and passage showing the law is required for salvation. Now go ahead and post Mat 19. I'm ready.

 

[mmksparbud]

No animal sacrifice only put off the dealing with sin of mankind.

Do not understand what you sre saying.

 

[Dkh587]

Aren't you claiming one can't be saved without keeping the covenant given exclusively to Israel? Wouldn't that be an addition to what I read Jesus saying in in John 3 and 5?

Where did I claim that?