One of the most controversial issues, is the DAY OF WORSHIP

[ace of hearts]

You keep making statements that sound like you are denying what the scripture says. It is clear. n You may not like it, but it is what it says. You are sounding very confused.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Please explain both verse 16 and 17. You seem to pit them against each other or ignore verse 16.

I am reading them, You keep claiming that the writers of the scriptures are confused---you seem to refuse to believe what the scriptures say.

That's your opinion.

You saying that does not make it so. Apparently, God didn't think so either. The 10 are written by God's own hand, the Levitical laws were written by the hand of Moses, the 10 were kept inside the Ark, the Levitical laws were kept outside the Ark, the 10 were written on stone, the ordinances were written on paper. The 10 are permanent, the ordinances were replaced by the Sacrificial Lamb. Jesus replace the Levitical laws---that is what Paul and all the writers teach when their writings are not read through the lens of man's own non-biblical theories.

Why is Romans 7:6 invalid when we read in the following verse - "except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Is Paul talking about the oral law. I think he references the 10th commandment of the famous 10 essentially calling it "the law."

The whole statement is to be taken in its entirety. There is nothing here that "shows how they broke those commandments."

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It certainly wouldn't take much to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees for they were self-righteous!

By what are you trying to establish righteousness? Isn't it the famous 10? Here's what Jesus says about them -

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This happens more than once in the chapter about the famous 10 and others laws (commands) found in the law. This is either a disagreement statement or an out right change of the law (famous 10).

in vain

DEFINITION

1. without success or a result.
   "they waited in vain for a response"
   
2. Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
   Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
   Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
   Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

1. So are you saying that worshiping God on Sunday is vain (worthless) and refused by God? Also are you claiming worshiping God on Sunday is sin?

   The word "holy" :
   

   

   

   

   

   קֹדֶשׁ qo-desh Special 6944 A person, item, time or place that has the quality of being unique; Separated from the rest for a special purpose.
   Ancient Hebrew Dictionary - 6501 to 7000
   
   Church attendance gets you nothing, keeping the Sabbath gets you nothing---we are saved by grace. We keep the 10 out of love for God, out of obedience to His Sacred word. As they say--they are 10 commandments, not suggestions. And there are 10--not 9.
   
   Jesus went to the Temple every Sabbath, so did the disciples before and after the resurrection.

Then you have no valid point to stand on. Temple or synagogue attendance isn't proof of keeping the sabbath.

What do you think they went to the temple for? Hint: It wasn't for potluck followed by football.

Do your religious activities attendance increase on the days you have potluck? I do understand you don't watch football.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by 2 sets of commandments. There was only 1 set in the Ark, they were written by the Hand of God--Jesus was at Mt Zion. Jesus is the OT, Jesus pointed to God through the NT. Jesus did not say--Pray to Him---He said to Pray "Our Father."

Why? can't you read the text of John 15:10 and discern there are two different sets of commandments in the text?

Jesus was a Jew, He kept all the Jewish laws and all the feasts until His death, He kept both the sacrificial laws and the 10. At His death he fulfilled all the sacrificial laws.

No Jesus fulfilled all the law as He said He'd do.

Jeremiah has 52 chapters---Please state chapter and verse that you are referring to. The old covenant was through the sacrificial, Levitical laws---the new covenant is through the Sacrificial Lamb Himself. Again--the 10 and the ordinances are not the same.​

You can't be serious here to say you don't know full well what I'm referencing. NTL the pointed specific statement is found in 31:31-33 for you to change the meaning of and or deny.​

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Would you care to include the context of your partial conversation quote? Jesus is answering a direct question, not teaching or preaching.

In Matt. 22:37 Jesus is referencing
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

The first 4 commandments are describing our duty to God, the last 6 is our duty to man. To love God and man is to keep the 10.
The 10 were the commandments, the law of Moses was the ordinances.

What does Col 2:14 say about ordinances that you specifically reference as the famous 10? you quoted it below.

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col_2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Heb_9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Doesn't the above mean - the service and worship of God according to the requirements of the Levitical law?

Heb_9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[bekkilyn]

The old covenant law was the law of sacrifices and ordinances not the 10. The 7th day Sabbath was instituted by God on the 7th day of creation--no Jews yet.
Interesting that there really is no question that we are not to do any of the other 9---no one can honestly say that you can be an unrepentant murderer, thief, liar, covetous person or one who dishonors their parents, adulterer, or worship other gods and still be saved. It is only the one commandment that God says we are to remember that everyone wants to forget. We are not saved by keeping any of these, but we can certainly be lost by unrepentantly breaking any of those others. And yet, we are supposed to be free to unrepentantly break the only one He says to remember!

God may have rested from his work on the seventh day, but he did not institute a seventh day sabbath law for humans until he made that covenant with the Israelites at Sinai, and that covenant was only in place until the new covenant through Christ. (And even long before then, the Israelites broke the covenant that God made with them.) If we are *literally* basing it on scripture, this is it. Everything else like, "Well God must have intended Adam and Eve and everyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath because he rested on the seventh day" is all based on human tradition and conjecture. There is no scripture that directly claims such a thing, but is something that humans had to carefully construct.

Also, Christians are not breaking any of God's laws when we are surrendered to Christ because we are obedient through *his* obedience.

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev 4 and 5 is Scripture last time I checked and was informed. That isn't creative writing on my part.

Your comment that I'm dividing the Trinity ahasinst itself needs some explaining. I think Revelation is very clear and doesn't pit one against the other as you claim I'm doing.I note here by your quote the Word (Jesus) was with God in verse 2. This doesn't deny that the Word isn't God as verse one says. In fact verse one says the Word was with God.

Verse three says all things came into being by God. It doesn't say all things came into being thru the Word, Who was with God.

This isn't dividing the members of the Trinity against themselves as you claim. It's in full agreement with Rev4 and 5.
To the casual or careless reader it seems to say that. Let's start with verse
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

I ask Who did what? The subject is The Father.

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Same question here for verse 13.

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Same question here. In this verse The Father isn't the subject, Jesus is. One must be careful to note the colon ) at the end of each verse. That makes the statements inserts of other concepts or ideas.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Once again, Who is what? And notice the colon. If we take out these inserts we have -
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: ...For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

That fully agrees with Revelation 4 and 5. I didn't change God's word as you will claim.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I'm not going to argue about how the Trinity came into existence. It should be self evident that a father comes before a son. Without God (the Father) nothing consists.

Now I'm done arguing about creation and Who did what.There's no such evidence.Simply claiming Revelation 4 and 5 won't cut the mustard here.Obviously either you haven't read Rev 4 and 5 or you disagree with inspired text and throw it out.I understand that's what you believe.John 1 doesn't teach Jesus is the Creator.

Until you read it

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.[/quote]Only for the casual or one with an agenda looking for a proof text. Unfortunately for you I'm a technical reader. Yes we're arguing about a technical point. No because the Lamb doesn't sit on the throne. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, the Father. See Eph 1:20.I first responded to a comment about creation and Who did what. So I must ask you the same question - why do you feel a need to bring up and and try to argue against consistency of Scripture?No after reading the context. Also wondering if that's all Christ is Lord of because of what you intend the selected out of context quote to mean. After all isn't Jesus the sole One responsible for creating the other days according to you?[/QUOTE]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word
the "Word was with God," and the "Word was God."
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The word and God are inseparable--"with Him" and "was Him"

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

the "Word was with God," and the "Word was God."

 

[mmksparbud]

Please explain both verse 16 and 17. You seem to pit them against each other or ignore verse 16.

I am not pitting anything against each other---I am quoting scripture as it reads!---not taking only one verse but BOTH TOGETHER. You only want verse 16.

scripture must be read in context, not just what you want to hear.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

uk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The Pharisees where breaking the commandments---they were covetous. They justified their actions before men to appear righteous--but God can not be lied to, He knows the heart---and And "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Sin is the transgression of the law. Whether it is covetousness or adultery---it is sin. The law stands--it's easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the law to be set aside, glossed over, broken and covered up with our own self righteous interpretations of it.

That's your opinion.

My opinion is based on what you are saying!

Why is Romans 7:6 invalid when we read in the following verse - "except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Is Paul talking about the oral law. I think he references the 10th commandment of the famous 10 essentially calling it "the law."

Yes He is referencing the 10--obviously for covetousness and adultery are condemned in the 10 and is not a part of the sacrificial laws--CONTEXT. You can not call the 10 the "oral law." The sacrificial laws were dictated by God to Moses who wrote them down---the 10 were written by God Himself. The context will tell which law the writer is talking about.

Then you have no valid point to stand on. Temple or synagogue attendance isn't proof of keeping the sabbath.

Only God judges the heart!!! You can be sitting in church and breaking all the commandments in your heart!!!
the 4th merely states what God wants you to do--keep it holy, sanctified, and do no work on it. The condition of your heart is between God and the individual. If you sit in church but are thinking about your work--you are not being with God, and He alone is the judge of that. We do not keep it to proof to others our righteousness. We keep it because God says to.

Do your religious activities attendance increase on the days you have potluck? I do understand you don't watch football.

Most churches have potlucks. If that is what brings you--you've got a problem!

Why? can't you read the text of John 15:10 and discern there are two different sets of commandments in the text?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

• Go back to post #143 God and Jesus are one. Jesus was at creation, He was at Mt

Zion, He wrote the 10.

No Jesus fulfilled all the law as He said He'd do.

The whole book of Hebrews explains what law He fulfilled---For the only ones that were fulfilled were those that pointed to His being offered as the Sacrificial Lamb, at which point He became the New Covenant and our High Priest. You do not sacrifice an animal to be saved anymore----but you can not be an unrepentant breaker of any of the 10, and still be saved.

You can't be serious here to say you don't know full well what I'm referencing. NTL the pointed specific statement is found in 31:31-33 for you to change the meaning of and or deny.

Sorry--but I am 68, have many medical issues, have Fibro which causes forgetfulness and "fog" and often need a little hint to trigger the old grey cells.
Thank you---the new covenant is that Jesus is now our High Priest and we no longer need to sacrifice animals, and the law---the 10 -- He writes in our hearts. Written on stone or in our hearts--it is still written and to be obeyed.

Would you care to include the context of your partial conversation quote? Jesus is answering a direct question, not teaching or preaching.

Every question He answered was teaching and preaching! He was asked by an individual---but His answers apply to all. He was constantly asked questions.

What does Col 2:14 say about ordinances that you specifically reference as the famous 10? you quoted it below.

Doesn't the above mean - the service and worship of God according to the requirements of the Levitical law?

Again--context determines which law the writer is talking about--sacrificial or the 10. The 10 were not a matter of sacrificing animals and washings and such which pointed to the death of Christ. The 10 were not that which were a "shadow of things to come"--the Sabbath, in particular, pointed backwards, not forwards. It points back to God as the Creator.

 

[mmksparbud]

By your definition, ANY work (besides that specifically done for evil intent) is doing acts of kindness for others.

The fact is, no matter how much you may try and try and try to keep the old covenant sabbath, you are failing to keep it. You are not obedient to it. In fact, it is not possible to remain obedient to it. Even keeping it 99% is still failing to keep it. Trying to keep it doesn't cut it any more than not keeping it because you're still not keeping it. Our *trying* to obey laws means nothing. They are as filthy rags in God's eyes. That's the entire point of the law...to show us how desperately we need a Savior. That's why under the new covenant, our obedience is in *Christ* and our surrender to him, and not by obeying a set of laws. We are obedient to sabbath and to any other of God's laws by being in Christ and allowing his Spirit to do his work through us. His will, not ours. He wants our heart, not our sacrifices.

Wrong--it is not us that keep any of the 10----It is Christ in us that does so. And you are right---sacrifices are not what God wants----those were nailed to the cross---He in us--that is salvation. That is what the sacrifices pointed to--Christ. He now writes the 10 in our hearts. We obey from love. But if you can point to any verse that states we can break any of the 10 unrepentantly and still be saved, please do so.

 

[mmksparbud]

God may have rested from his work on the seventh day, but he did not institute a seventh day sabbath law for humans until he made that covenant with the Israelites at Sinai, and that covenant was only in place until the new covenant through Christ. (And even long before then, the Israelites broke the covenant that God made with them.) If we are *literally* basing it on scripture, this is it. Everything else like, "Well God must have intended Adam and Eve and everyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath because he rested on the seventh day" is all based on human tradition and conjecture. There is no scripture that directly claims such a thing, but is something that humans had to carefully construct.

Also, Christians are not breaking any of God's laws when we are surrendered to Christ because we are obedient through *his* obedience.

The 7th day was instituted at creation---there were no Jews. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before Zion--no manna fell on the Sabbath that was before at the Mt Zion. Sin is the transgression of the law--Joseph knew it was a sin to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife, and Cain knew what sin was Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door."

The Israelites had been in Egypt for over 400 hundred years--that is why God said "Remember." Over 400 hundred years with idol worshipping pagans can make you forget a lot of things! The Sabbath was made for man, God instituted the Sabbath at creation for our benefit, not His. He ceased from work and that is what we are to do. And yes, it is Christ in us that makes us obedient to His law, written in stone or in the heart---it is still written and to be obeyed. You can not be saved and be an unrepentant sinner--sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Dkh587]

Jesus and His disciples didnt rest on the sabbath. They did Gods works.

It is true that Jesus did God’s work on the Sabbath, but God’s work is different from a 9-5 job.

Jesus and the Apostles & disciples rested from their customary work on the Sabbath, such as fishing, tent building and carpentry.

Jesus and the Apostles kept the Sabbath according to the command(and taught their followers to do the same). To teach otherwise is to accuse them of lawlessness.

 

[Dkh587]

Where? Please quote me.

It’s as simple as this: if you aren’t teaching obedience to God’s law, then you are teaching disobedience to it, which is lawlessness.

You do not teach obedience to God’s law, and you accuse Christ & the Apostles of not teaching disobedience to God’s law.

Therefore, you teach lawlessness and accuse them of teaching(and living in) lawlessness as well.

 

[bekkilyn]

Wrong--it is not us that keep any of the 10----It is Christ in us that does so. And you are right---sacrifices are not what God wants----those were nailed to the cross---He in us--that is salvation. That is what the sacrifices pointed to--Christ. He now writes the 10 in our hearts. We obey from love. But if you can point to any verse that states we can break any of the 10 unrepentantly and still be saved, please do so.

It is *God* (Christ) through his Holy Spirit that is in our hearts, not a set of stone tablets. If you believe that God is entirely made up of what is written on two stone tablets, then you are putting human limitations onto God.

The 7th day was instituted at creation---there were no Jews. The Israelites knew about the Sabbath before Zion--no manna fell on the Sabbath that was before at the Mt Zion. Sin is the transgression of the law--Joseph knew it was a sin to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife, and Cain knew what sin was Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door."

The Israelites had been in Egypt for over 400 hundred years--that is why God said "Remember." Over 400 hundred years with idol worshipping pagans can make you forget a lot of things! The Sabbath was made for man, God instituted the Sabbath at creation for our benefit, not His. He ceased from work and that is what we are to do. And yes, it is Christ in us that makes us obedient to His law, written in stone or in the heart---it is still written and to be obeyed. You can not be saved and be an unrepentant sinner--sin is the transgression of the law.

Practically none of what you've stated above is scriptural because scripture does not state that the Sinai covenant and its laws were in place before the covenant was made with Israel. It does not state that God made *any* laws instituting a sabbath before he specifically required it of the Israelites. God specifically told Cain and Abel what he required..that was his "law" for them, and Cain went against it. Thus, transgression of law. Nothing about any ten commandments before they ever existed as Israelite law.

You can only be saved through surrendering yourself to Jesus and that's it. "No one comes to the Father except through me." Me == a person. Jesus Christ. Not a set of rules on stone tablets and *he* commands us to love others as *he* loves his church, which is not included anywhere in the old covenant.

 

[bekkilyn]

The whole book of Hebrews explains what law He fulfilled---For the only ones that were fulfilled were those that pointed to His being offered as the Sacrificial Lamb, at which point He became the New Covenant and our High Priest. You do not sacrifice an animal to be saved anymore----but you can not be an unrepentant breaker of any of the 10, and still be saved.

It was NEVER the case that anyone sacrificed an animal to be saved. There was a purpose for these particular rituals and sacrifices, but it was never salvation.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that only part of the law was fulfilled.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is *God* (Christ) through his Holy Spirit that is in our hearts, not a set of stone tablets. If you believe that God is entirely made up of what is written on two stone tablets, then you are putting human limitations onto God.

No limits on God. God set His limits on us. It was God that set the limits on Adam and Eve. All they had to do was obey Him when He said to not eat of that one tree. But someone told them, they really had no such limits--they would not die. Obedience to God sets us free from the bondage to sin. Satan still says we will not die if we do what we want and disregard what God says. It's just that now He is saying we will not die that 2nd death. And if you think the laws of God are just words on stone--they are a revelation of His character.
​

Practically none of what you've stated above is scriptural because scripture does not state that the Sinai covenant and its laws were in place before the covenant was made with Israel. It does not state that God made *any* laws instituting a sabbath before he specifically required it of the Israelites. God specifically told Cain and Abel what he required..that was his "law" for them, and Cain went against it. Thus, transgression of law. Nothing about any ten commandments before they ever existed as Israelite law.

You can only be saved through surrendering yourself to Jesus and that's it. "No one comes to the Father except through me." Me == a person. Jesus Christ. Not a set of rules on stone tablets and *he* commands us to love others as *he* loves his church, which is not included anywhere in the old covenant.

Levitical laws were not set in place until Zion. But that there was a sacrificial system since Adam and Eve is certainly in the bible or Cain and Abel would not have been making any such offering to God. And if it was only meant for them, no one else would have been making them. Abraham was doing them, Job was making sacrifices to God, and there was Melchizedec and tithes--These people didn't come up with these things on their own. The bible does not state every thing--it was an oral society back then---God spoke directly to those people.
Gen_8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Noah knew abut clean and unclean animals. They went into the ark by clean and unclean.

The Sabbath was set in place at creation.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jesus should know--He was there that creation day. To deny the Sabbath as set at creation is to deny the God of creation. He created it for us. At Zion He stated again the reason for the Sabbath --

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It was set at creation as a memorial of God's creative powers. It is He that created the world and it is He that decides what our duties to Him and each other are.
He gave His life for us in a very cruel manner, He gives us everything--He asks for one specific day a week for us to be spent solely with Him and for us to not work and the world has to argue about it because it interferes with their schedules.

 

[mmksparbud]

It was NEVER the case that anyone sacrificed an animal to be saved. There was a purpose for these particular rituals and sacrifices, but it was never salvation.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that only part of the law was fulfilled.

It was always the case that the animals were sacrificed to cleanse from sin.
Jesus fulfilled all the Levitical laws--all those that pointed to Him as the surficial Lamb. There was no further need for them. They can not cleanse from sin--His blood does which is what they always represented.

 

[Soyeong]

God's "law" is not the Mosaic law, which includes the ten commandments given specifically to Israel at Sinai. They are a mere shadow of God's truth, which is his person, his very being. We cannot limit God to a set of commandments as he is eternal and limitless. Being obedient to a set of commandments, even if given by God to a specific people for a specific purpose, is not the same as being obedient to God himself. We are obedient to God himself through Jesus Christ. The ten commandments of the Sinai covenant are not God.

When we are transformed by the Spirit, our actions will be a reflection of God, but not because we are diligently following commandments and ordinances and laws, but because the Holy Spirit is leading us and will not lead us astray. Some results may be the same (we don't commit adultery because a commandment tells us not to vs. we don't commit adultery because the Spirit leads us away from such a thing) but obeying commandments is an act of trying to become righteous through our own effort vs. being led by the Spirit which is an act of God through us.

God's Law is straightforwardly inclusive of all of the laws that He has given. None of the Mosaic laws originated with Moses, but rather Moses served as a mediator, where he wrote down everything that God commanded to without departing from it either to the right or to the left whereupon he then conveyed those commands to the Israelites. So all of the Mosaic laws are God's laws and they all have the same moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them, God commanded Moses to write them, or even if God had just spoken them without anyone writing them down. Changing the medium upon which they are written or where they are places does not change their moral authority or the content of what they require us to do.

God's commands are important foreshadows that are rich with teachings about Jesus and about God's plan of redemption. Jesus brings full substance to the foreshadows so that we can fully see what God was teaching us through them, which make them all the more important to continue to observe in remembrance of Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, but instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with these "mere shadows" he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast.

It is nonsensical for you to claim that being obedient to God's commands is not the same as being obedient to God. Jesus lived in completely obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it looks like to be obedient to God through Jesus Christ. We are being transformed by the Spirit to be more like Christ, who again lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are creating a false dichotomy between following the Law and following the Spirit.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commands, so obedience to God's Law has always been about living by faith and love and has never been about trying to become righteous through our own efforts. Again, if the Law were about being righteous through our own effort and God does not want us to become righteous through our own effort, then it would follow that God doesn't want His followers to obey His commands and that God can't be trust to lead us, which is absurd. Trying to become righteous through our own efforts has always been a perversion and a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Law. It was precisely that misunderstanding of the goal of the Law that caused the Israelites to fail to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30-10:4.

Also, when Jesus was demonstrating his obedience to old covenant law, the old covenant was still in place for Jews as Jesus had not yet fulfilled it through his death and resurrection. It is not his intent for us to continue under the old covenant, even for those who are Jews, but to fully embrace his new covenant which is obedience through surrender to him, to his Lordship, and his new commandment (not in the ten commandments or anywhere else in Mosaic law) was to love others as HE loves his church. Huge difference even from the Golden Rule. Following a set of laws isn't going to help us there because again, it has everything to do with surrender and submission and being a servant.

The Law is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His character traits, such a holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions, such as love, and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are to love as he loved. There is not much sense in someone wanting to obey God's command to love, but want nothing to do with obeying His instructions for how He wants us to love. So even if Jesus hadn't been under the Mosaic Covenant, then he still would have lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law because he still would have the same character traits. Jesus fulfilled the Law by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it by word and by example.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it links the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked. Jesus was sinless, so walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. Regardless of which covenant Jesus was under, as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). We do not need to become Jews in order to become followers of the Jewish Messiah, but we can't follow him by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example. You can't surrender and submit and be a servant of God by refusing to obey His laws, but rather obedience to His laws is the way to do that.

 

[Soyeong]

Only in Israel could someone rest on the national day of rest, the Sabbath. Outside of the nation of Israel you work on Saturday, because Saturday is not a national day of rest.

People become very confused about the Sabbath. The Jews were required by their national law to honor the Sabbath. The Gentiles were not required to honor the Sabbath.

Nor were Gentiles ever required to be circumcised, even though all the apostles and Jesus were circumcised. What more evidence to you need.

Do you think that Gentiles honor the Passover?

Do you think Gentiles have to become Jews?

Israel is inclusive of all righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel through faith in Messiah. In Isaiah 56:1-8, the Sabbath is clearly not intended just for Jews. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). So keeping the Sabbath is about acting in accordance with God's holiness, not about the nation of Israel. The God's Law was given as instructions for how to walk in His ways and to express His character traits, not as instructions for how to live a Jew. So while it is good to correctly understand whom a law was given to, it is not good to focus on that so much that you lose sight of whom it was given by.

The issue was that cimcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond what God commanded it for, which was in fact contrary to the purposes of God, so you should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying what the God we serve has command. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-7, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feasts, so yes, Gentiles also have the privilege and the delight of getting to honor Passover, and if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then that would be an appropriate reason for them to become circumcised. Gentiles do not need to become Jews in order to follow the Jewish Messiah of Judaism, but Gentiles can't follow him by refuse to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

Imagine a scenario where God never made any covenants with man, but simply gave instructions for our own good for how to walk in His ways and to righty live. Would you seek to have the privilege and the delight of getting to follow those instructions or would you want nothing to do with them?

 

[bekkilyn]

No limits on God. God set His limits on us. It was God that set the limits on Adam and Eve. All they had to do was obey Him when He said to not eat of that one tree. But someone told them, they really had no such limits--they would not die. Obedience to God sets us free from the bondage to sin. Satan still says we will not die if we do what we want and disregard what God says. It's just that now He is saying we will not die that 2nd death. And if you think the laws of God are just words on stone--they are a revelation of His character. ​

God telling Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree is not included in the ten commandments, which goes to show that God and his character are not limited by them, or any other set of laws that he gave to particular people for particular purposes. Obviously, if God tells us to do something, we are to obey, but we are under no obligation to obey what God tells *other* people to do.

​

Levitical laws were not set in place until Zion. But that there was a sacrificial system since Adam and Eve is certainly in the bible or Cain and Abel would not have been making any such offering to God. And if it was only meant for them, no one else would have been making them. Abraham was doing them, Job was making sacrifices to God, and there was Melchizedec and tithes--These people didn't come up with these things on their own. The bible does not state every thing--it was an oral society back then---God spoke directly to those people.
Gen_8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Noah knew abut clean and unclean animals. They went into the ark by clean and unclean.

And none of this proves that any sort of ten commandments or legal requirement to observe a seventh day sabbath was in place for any of these people, and certainly not for all people everywhere for all time.

The Sabbath was set in place at creation.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

This is not an institution of a law to observe a seventh day sabbath. Remember also that seven is a number of perfection or completeness, so it may have absolutely nothing to do with 24 hour days at all, but more of an indication that God's creation is complete, good, and perfect in his eyes. IN any case, there is nothing concerning a set of ten commandments at creation anywhere in scripture. That's adding something to scripture that doesn't clearly exist.

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

However, sabbatarians seem to have this backwards.

Jesus should know--He was there that creation day. To deny the Sabbath as set at creation is to deny the God of creation. He created it for us. At Zion He stated again the reason for the Sabbath --

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It was set at creation as a memorial of God's creative powers. It is He that created the world and it is He that decides what our duties to Him and each other are.

No sabbath laws were set at creation according to scripture. When God set the sabbath law for the Israelites at Sinai, he may have tied it into creation, but at the same time, he also tied it into remembering when they were slaves in Egypt.

He gave His life for us in a very cruel manner, He gives us everything--He asks for one specific day a week for us to be spent solely with Him and for us to not work and the world has to argue about it because it interferes with their schedules.

He does not ask *us* for any specific days. What he asks of us as new covenant Christians is to love each other as he loves us. Which we are to do on any day of the week.

 

[bekkilyn]

It was always the case that the animals were sacrificed to cleanse from sin.
Jesus fulfilled all the Levitical laws--all those that pointed to Him as the surficial Lamb. There was no further need for them. They can not cleanse from sin--His blood does which is what they always represented.

They very temporarily cleansed from sin, but doesn't mean that they were in any way salvational. Salvation wasn't the purpose of the law. Salvation was always through faith.

 

[Kaon]

What is the definition of a day?
What is the definition of a month, and the new year?

If you know those, you know the Sabbath just by following His Word. It is so obvious that it us easily overlooked.

 

[Soyeong]

Hello Soyeong.

You made the following statement.

Where did you get that definition of legalism from, what was your source?

Legalism has nothing to do with any tradition.

Legalism is simply elevating the law to equivalence, or even above grace.

Even more accurately, legalism, is adding certain laws to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For example, a Gentile must be circumcised to be saved as a Christian. We saw this legal requirement added to the gospel in Acts 15, and we saw how the apostles countered this act of legalism.

The same is true of every law, all the letter of the law cannot save, when added to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We are under grace and not under the law.

I was discussing legalism recently with someone who used that definition of legalism, so it's not an official definition from an accredited institution, but it is nevertheless a definition that is accurate. In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the commands of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their traditions they made void the word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshiping God in vain because they were teaching as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-13).

People have no problem identifying the Pharisees as being legalistic and one of the major problems that Jesus had with them was that they were placing their own traditions above God's Law, so I don't see how you can say that legalism has nothing to do with traditions, especially when you define legalism as adding certain laws to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which are also known as traditions that have been placed above God's Law. For example, requiring Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved is a man-made law or tradition that was being placed above God's' Law. We also see modern examples of this such as with people teaching that if you wear certain clothes, listen to certain music, or watch certain shows, then you are going to hell, where people have created their own standard.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23), and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, which means that repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, and which means that teaching that we don't need to repent from our disobedience to it is adding our own traditions on top of the his Gospel message.

Obedience to the letter of the law leads to death just as assuredly as refusing to submit to God's Law because it undermine both the intent of what God commanded us to do and why God commanded us to do it, so I agree that it does not saved. Paul said in Romans 1:5 that we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not saved by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience to God's Law, so obedience is what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. He did not say that we become justified by obeying the Law, but rather obedience to the Law is a trait that everyone who has faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live has in common. In Psalm 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so when we are under grace we are under God's Law and not under the law of sin.

 

[bekkilyn]

God's Law is straightforwardly inclusive of all of the laws that He has given. None of the Mosaic laws originated with Moses, but rather Moses served as a mediator, where he wrote down everything that God commanded to without departing from it either to the right or to the left whereupon he then conveyed those commands to the Israelites. So all of the Mosaic laws are God's laws and they all have the same moral authority regardless of whether God wrote them, God commanded Moses to write them, or even if God had just spoken them without anyone writing them down. Changing the medium upon which they are written or where they are places does not change their moral authority or the content of what they require us to do.

At least you're not dividing up the law into all of these false categories for the purpose of rejecting the ones you don't like to follow. Unlike some in this discussion, at least you are recognizing that ALL of the law is from God.

God's commands are important foreshadows that are rich with teachings about Jesus and about God's plan of redemption. Jesus brings full substance to the foreshadows so that we can fully see what God was teaching us through them, which make them all the more important to continue to observe in remembrance of Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, but instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with these "mere shadows" he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast.

It is nonsensical for you to claim that being obedient to God's commands is not the same as being obedient to God.

Where I disagree is that God's commands to the old covenant Israelites are not the same as God's commands to us.

Jesus lived in completely obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it looks like to be obedient to God through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was an old covenant Jew as a human. He had not yet fulfilled the law of the covenant through his death and resurrection.

We are being transformed by the Spirit to be more like Christ, who again lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so you are creating a false dichotomy between following the Law and following the Spirit.

Under the new covenant, we no longer have simply a master-servant relationship with God, but are his adopted sons through Christ. While it is true that the Spirit is not going to lead us into anything in opposition to God and his will, it is not about following commandments and laws and hoping the Spirit goes along with it, but surrendering completely to his will through the Spirit.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commands, so obedience to God's Law has always been about living by faith and love and has never been about trying to become righteous through our own efforts. Again, if the Law were about being righteous through our own effort and God does not want us to become righteous through our own effort, then it would follow that God doesn't want His followers to obey His commands and that God can't be trust to lead us, which is absurd. Trying to become righteous through our own efforts has always been a perversion and a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Law. It was precisely that misunderstanding of the goal of the Law that caused the Israelites to fail to obtain righteousness in Romans 9:30-10:4.

I believe we have some agreement here.

The Law is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His character traits, such a holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions, such as love, and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are to love as he loved. There is not much sense in someone wanting to obey God's command to love, but want nothing to do with obeying His instructions for how He wants us to love. So even if Jesus hadn't been under the Mosaic Covenant, then he still would have lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law because he still would have the same character traits. Jesus fulfilled the Law by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it by word and by example.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it links the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way he walked. Jesus was sinless, so walked in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. Regardless of which covenant Jesus was under, as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). We do not need to become Jews in order to become followers of the Jewish Messiah, but we can't follow him by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example. You can't surrender and submit and be a servant of God by refusing to obey His laws, but rather obedience to His laws is the way to do that.

See this is where we disagree. Jesus wasn't sinless because he walked in complete obedience to Mosaic law. His doing so was what qualified him for being the Messiah of prophecy. However, Jesus was sinless because he was God and would be sinless regardless of whether or not any laws were given to any peoples on earth.

Jesus gave us a *new* command to follow in John 13:34 to love each other as he loves us. This command isn't part of the ten commandments or found anywhere in the Mosaic law. If we follow *this* command through the help and guidance of the Spirit, then no other commandment or law of God would ever be broken because this Christ-like love encompasses everything. It is what sets us apart as believers and what shows Christ in the world to other people.

But if all we're doing is trying not to steal, trying not to covet, trying not to commit adultery, trying to keep a seventh day, etc., then we are on the road to failure because faith in Christ is not about getting better and better at following laws until we can hopefully accomplish to follow them perfectly, but about recognizing that we are hopeless sinners and allowing Christ to work his will through us and we need no written laws for that because the Holy Spirit now resides in our hearts.

If people want to observe a seventh day sabbath because of tradition or because it's healthy or because the Spirit is leading them to do it for some purpose, than that's great. I have no argument with that, but it is not a new covenant requirement for all Christians everywhere because Jesus himself is our rest and is who the sabbath observance was pointing to. When we surrender ourselves to Jesus, we are observing sabbath and are not in violation of any commandments.

 

[klutedavid]

Israel is inclusive of all righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel through faith in Messiah. In Isaiah 56:1-8, the Sabbath is clearly not intended just for Jews. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). So keeping the Sabbath is about acting in accordance with God's holiness, not about the nation of Israel. The God's Law was given as instructions for how to walk in His ways and to express His character traits, not as instructions for how to live a Jew. So while it is good to correctly understand whom a law was given to, it is not good to focus on that so much that you lose sight of whom it was given by.

The issue was that cimcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond what God commanded it for, which was in fact contrary to the purposes of God, so you should not take something that was only against obeying man as being against obeying what the God we serve has command. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-7, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb and then concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feasts, so yes, Gentiles also have the privilege and the delight of getting to honor Passover, and if a Gentile wanted to eat of the Passover lamb, then that would be an appropriate reason for them to become circumcised. Gentiles do not need to become Jews in order to follow the Jewish Messiah of Judaism, but Gentiles can't follow him by refuse to follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

You seem to disagree with Acts 15.

You claim Gentiles must follow the Law, you said, 'Gentiles can't follow him by refuse to follow the Law that he followed'.

Your saying that Gentiles are under the law?