Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[BCsenior]

I take it, this concept is new to you, and 1 John 3:9 is not to be believed, let alone understood and lived.

I agree that 1 John 3:9 is a very troublesome verse.
Can it possibly mean that God doesn't see any sin
being performed by a BAC? If so, many NT warning verses are written to the unsaved in the churches.
But then, what about those falling away from the faith,
falling from grace, drawing back to perdition, etc.?

 

[SkyWriting]

The verse plainly states that the propitiation of Jesus' blood applies to our past sins only. God does not exist in time but our sins certainly do, so your logic is fallacious.

There was a time (most of the Bible) where Jesus has not spilt any blood.


Here again...no HINT of partial salvation.


Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.

Psalm 86:5
For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.

Psalm 32:1-2
A Maskil of David. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Psalm 130:4
But with you there is forgiveness, that you may be feared.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Psalm 55:22
Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.

Isaiah 43:25
“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of your name; deliver us, and atone for our sins, for your name's sake!

Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Psalm 32:1-11
A Maskil of David. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit. For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah ...

Psalm 19:12
Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.

 

[Oldmantook]

There was a time (most of the Bible) where Jesus has not spilt any blood.


Here again...no HINT of partial salvation.


Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.

Psalm 86:5
For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.

Psalm 32:1-2
A Maskil of David. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

Psalm 130:4
But with you there is forgiveness, that you may be feared.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Psalm 55:22
Cast your burden on the Lord, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.

Isaiah 43:25
“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of your name; deliver us, and atone for our sins, for your name's sake!

Genesis 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Psalm 32:1-11
A Maskil of David. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit. For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah ...

Psalm 19:12
Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.

You made my point. Jesus' blood was not efficacious until the atonement.

 

[SkyWriting]

You made my point. Jesus' blood was not efficacious until the atonement.

Ya right.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ya right.

Thank you for acknowledging I'm right.

 

[Righttruth]

Yes..good verse. What do you think it is teaching as salvation cannot be lost once it is finished

It is against such a presumption because only those who endure to the end will be saved.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

It is against such a presumption because only those who endure to the end will be saved.

All of those elected to salvation do of necessity persevere to the end because God works in them from start to finish.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree that 1 John 3:9 is a very troublesome verse.
Can it possibly mean that God doesn't see any sin
being performed by a BAC? If so, many NT warning verses are written to the unsaved in the churches.
But then, what about those falling away from the faith,
falling from grace, drawing back to perdition, etc.?

No, it is not that God doesn't see the sins we commit. The wages of sin are still death, whether by a Christian or non-Christian. That was the warning in Romans 6. He is virtually saying there "why sin when you don't have to?" Or in other words, "why sin when the desire to sin is dead?"

John tells us what kind of sin he is talking about regarding 1 John 3:9 in the 4th verse - lawlessness. Those are willful sins we know are wrong and are sins unto death. But there are sins not unto death. Do you know the difference? We can talk about that later.

Sin is the reason for the baptism in the Holy Spirit - so we cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. It is also the reason why only our past sins are forgiven at conversion, as you already know by your OP. To say that God doesn't see the sins we still commit is saying that more than our past sins are forgiven at conversion. No you were right the first time. 1 John 3:5 says Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, and in Him, there is no sin. That means Jesus by the Spirit kills the desire to sin, the old man. It was crucified on the cross with Jesus, and we are resurrected with Him through the new birth.

There are many in the Church that have never been born again (saved). They've never truly repented from all sin - wanting to be free from sin, not just the punishment for sin. They believe they are "positionally" born again, to explain why they've never experienced any change in their desires. That is the same error as God being blind to our sins we have no power to stop committing. No, God gives us His grace. And therein lies another fallacy, that grace is unmerited favor. No grace is the power of God, given or "favored" to us freely to empower us, not only for gifts, but to free us from the sin nature inherited from Adam. Here is proof: A Semitic writing style called "parallelism" - Two phrases that enlighten one another. Acts 4:33 Grace = Power

And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

I'm sending you my testimony of what happened when I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You are Charismatic, so maybe you can relate.

 

[Righttruth]

All of those elected to salvation do of necessity persevere to the end because God works in them from start to finish.

So we mean we are His robots, not of our own will and soul?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

So we mean we are His robots, not of our own will and soul?

We are unprofitable servants called to obey God.
God makes us willing...psalm110:3
Do you see it?

 

[Righttruth]

We are unprofitable servants called to obey God.
God makes us willing...psalm110:3
Do you see it?

Unless you yield to the Spirit, nothing can be done.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christians have already been judged and are living the NEW life.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Interesting. That is about what this person claims [I just found this site the other day]......

About the Author | JUDGMENT DAY IS OVER

"He then gave His Spirit to the 1st Century Church so that they could obey Him and become perfect like Jesus (God). They had to endure in faith overcoming trials, tribulations, persecution, torture, betrayal, famine, nakedness, hunger, disease, wars, etc – to finally be saved from the Judgment day of 70AD when Christ’s 2nd coming took place.

That was the final judgment day – when the old covenant religious system was destroyed. That was when the law ended.
The law demanded that man be perfect – and found Jesus Christ as the One who fulfilled the requirements of the law.

Christ’s finished work has made ALL of mankind perfect.

The judgment day is over."




.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Unless you yield to the Spirit, nothing can be done.

That is not what is taught here.

 

[BCsenior]

No, it is not that God doesn't see the sins we commit. ... He is virtually saying there "why sin when you don't have to?" Or in other words, "why sin when the desire to sin is dead?"

1 John 3:9-10 (NLT)
Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

The problem is: my experience years ago does not line up with your explanation above. I know I was born-again plus baptized with the Holy Spirit, but my desire to sin did not cease, and indeed my sinning did not cease! Perhaps, I was thinking, "It'll all work out in the end." Then, years later, I finally got the picture, and began practicing righteousness! ... Mysterious what? ...
Back in the day, when I continued to sin ... without realizing it, had I actually chosen to not belong to God?

 

[BCsenior]

We are unprofitable servants called to obey God. God makes us willing ... psalm110:3 Do you see it?

Yes, God makes us willing somehow,
but not by violating our free-will.

 

[Righttruth]

That is not what is taught here.

Man has his own will to reject the will of God.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Yes, God makes us willing somehow,
but not by violating our free-will.

Free will does not exist anywhere.
Man has a will ...a self will that is bound and enslaved to sin.
The concept of a will that is free is a carnal philosophical idea by fallen rebellious man.

 

[BCsenior]

Free will does not exist anywhere.
Man has a will ...a self will that is bound and enslaved to sin.
The concept of a will that is free is a carnal philosophical idea by fallen rebellious man.

The NT repeatedly exhorts believers to stop sinning, practice righteousness, be a slave of obedience,
be a slave of righteousness, etc.
It is all a matter of CHOOSING to be such!
Which is against our flesh, but
which is in accordance with the Lord's will.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1 John 3:9-10 (NLT)
Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

The problem is: my experience years ago does not line up with your explanation above. I know I was born-again plus baptized with the Holy Spirit, but my desire to sin did not cease, and indeed my sinning did not cease! Perhaps, I was thinking, "It'll all work out in the end." Then, years later, I finally got the picture, and began practicing righteousness! ... Mysterious what? ...
Back in the day, when I continued to sin ... without realizing it, had I actually chosen to not belong to God?

I don't know. If you read the testimony I sent you, I had immediate power not to continue in known sin. But I do remember not knowing something was sin that I learned later was. Perhaps that is what you meant. Or what you were committing wasn't lawlessness 1 John 3:4, but rather immature fruit - lack of love, lack of self control, etc. And later in life you were more mature with fruit ready to harvest.

One thing I hate about the NLT you quoted is it used the word "practice" rather than "commit" which is the actual word and meaning of verse 9. One could rationalize, 'well I don't practice fornication so this once won't matter - I'll just ask forgiveness later.' It doesn't work that way. It is all about knowledge - willfulness. Hebrews 10:26-39

If one does commit a willful sin of lawlessness after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that sin must be confessed and cleansed, and not continued in. As Jesus said in the letter to the Ephesian church (Rev. 2), they had lost their first love, and must go back and "repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place." That is when, as you said in your OP, you MUST repent. But while walking in the Spirit there is no confession and repentance necessary, and the blood of Jesus cleanses you "from all sin." What kind of sins would those be that do not require repentance? The answer is trespasses unwittingly committed Leviticus 5:15. That is why only trespasses are in the Lord's Prayer (debts), not willful sins unto death of lawlessness.

 

[BCsenior]

It is all about knowledge - willfulness. Hebrews 10:26-39
If one does commit a willful sin of lawlessness after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that sin must be confessed and cleansed, and not continued in.

IMO, most BACs with the Spirit baptism (at some point)
have knowingly and willingly committed a sin.
It must be confessed and repented-of
just like all sins committed by everyone.
And what does the baptism have to do with it?