God and Time: Does God exist in all points in time?

[bling]

I believe time is based on math. Is math not real?

Can 2 + 2 = 5?
Or does 2 + 2 = 4?
Even Jesus says there are 12 hours in a day.
So for Jesus, time exists.

Time is not based on math. Time has been experimentally shown to be relative over the last 100 years and no experiment contradicts that observation. There is a real problem with time being relative in our universe since a changing universe would need a universal clock which would need to be controlling from outside the universe which is a contradiction in it self. The block Universe seems more likely scientifically for now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The concept is called "extemporal simultaneity."

God exists simultaneously at all points in space and all moments in time.

Because time and space are a created continuum, both concepts are actually one. Existing simultaneously at all points of space is the same thing as existing simultaneously in all moments of time.

Somewhere out there is the furthest reach of matter-energy, created at the Big Bang. That point (actually, it would be the surface of an expanding globe is both the beginning of time and the beginning of space), that place in space-time still exists. We will never really see it with telescopes because it's expanding away from us so fast that it's light will never reach us. But God is out there, right in that place and moment of space-time.

And right where I am in my own particular moment of space-time--my own personal here-and-now, God also exists...simultaneously.

Sounds like some kind of science fiction movie and not the Bible.

Again, this kind of thinking is foreign to Scripture. I am not totally without fault, I used to think the same way about GOD, until I started to reject the philosophies of this world and it's way of thinking. Your belief comes from time travel fiction and not God's Word. While God certainly has the power to exist in all points in time, this is not what is revealed to us in Scripture. If God existed in all points in time, He would be a slave to time (repeating the same past events we read about in Scripture - over and over and over and over again). But God is the master over time, and time is not master over God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Time is not based on math. Time has been experimentally shown to be relative over the last 100 years and no experiment contradicts that observation. There is a real problem with time being relative in our universe since a changing universe would need a universal clock which would need to be controlling from outside the universe which is a contradiction in it self. The block Universe seems more likely scientifically for now?

Yes, it is. God says do this on the 7th day or do this on the 10th day, etc. Jesus says there are 12 hours in a day. All time keeping. All math. All these things come from God. So you are disagreeing without really thinking things through logically. Numbers are a part of math. Our time keeping is based on math. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... etc. This is the counting of the passage of time. In fact, several countable seconds or minutes from now, a person is going to reply and mark the passage of time (with math).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hey look! It was me! Time has passed since my last post. This time is measurable. It is not unknowable. Math, time keeping determines how many seconds or minutes have passed since my previous post. Was God present in our world between my two posts? Is not God living in those faithful believers between those few minutes I posted that is measurable? I would say... yes. God is a part of our time. God interacts with time because we can see God do certain things in His Word only once. We see a progression of how God did one thing in the past and how things have changed. This is all measurable by time (Which God is a part of).

 

[Neogaia777]

Hey look! It was me! Time has passed since my last post. This time is measurable. It is not unknowable. Math, time keeping determines how many seconds or minutes have passed since my previous post. Was God present in our world between my two posts? Is not God living in those faithful believers between those few minutes I posted that is measurable? I would say... yes. God is a part of our time. God interacts with time because we can see God do certain things in His Word only once. We see a progression of how God did one thing in the past and how things have changed. This is all measurable by time (Which God is a part of).

Perception is reality, and reality is perceiving...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Time keeping is merely showing the passage of time using Math. The parameters for time keeping like 24 hour calendar days, 12 months in a year, etc. are based upon factual things that we see. Months are determined by seasons. Days are determined by the rotation of the sun and the moon. God set these things in the sky for us for time keeping.

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" (Genesis 1:14).

Even without the rotation of the sun, and the moon, and the change of seasons, we would still be able to mark the passage of time even if nothing ever happened from our perspective. Just start counting.... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. This is the mark of time. Sequential numbering. God counts all our steps. So God is very much into numbering things.... including time. God interacts with His creation that is bound by time. Can God exist outside of our time, too? Nothing is impossible for GOD. I do not doubt that He can do that. But is that is what is revealed to us in Scripture? No. I don't see how that would exactly work based on things that are written in His Word. Again, God cannot stop from His work on the 7th day if He existed in another part of time whereby He was working.

Is it possible for a Triune God, to have one or more of them in or out of, or in or outside time with us...? Or could, or do, or can, all and each one of them, go back and forth, or do they go back and forth from in or outside time with us, or apart from us, or what...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Perception is reality, and reality is perceiving...

God Bless!

These "things" are only "real" because "we said they should be real", or needed them to be real, right now, for us, in this place, and from and by being in this place, and being brought up in this place, when, it might be quite be, maybe even very much more, "different" "elsewhere"...

God Bless!

 

[TheLostCoin]

What about when God shown Moses his back parts?
Was not God interacting in our time to do that?

Your initial posts seems to imply that time is something that is greater than God Himself, which it isn't - God isn't subject to the rules which He Himself sets, makes, and can change.

He only became subject to the rules of our time when the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (as far as his human nature is concerned - although this point may be disagreeable by the Oriental Orthodox).

As with all creation, God can directly interact with it, but He isn't bound by it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe time is based on math. Is math not real?

Can 2 + 2 = 5?
Or does 2 + 2 = 4?
Even Jesus says there are 12 hours in a day.
So for Jesus, time exists.

Or, when Jesus was created human, time existed until His death.

But before He was created human did time exist for Him as the Son of God?

Or after, when He returned to heaven?

I believe time is part of the earthly existance, not eternal or higher than human beings.

 

[Neogaia777]

These "things" are only "real" because "we said they should be real", or needed them to be real, right now, for us, in this place, and from and by being in this place, and being brought up in this place, when, it might be quite be, maybe even very much more, "different" "elsewhere"...

God Bless!

We dictated and maybe do dictate our own reality to one degree or another, yet as for knowing "exactly how that works and operates" and all the very marvelous complexities of it, I do not know it all, or know nearly enough, when it comes to those things...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

What about when God shown Moses his back parts?
Was not God interacting in our time to do that?

what are God's 'back parts'?

 

[Neogaia777]

what are God's 'back parts'?

Acts says that the burning bush was an angel...?

God Bless!

 

[Bruce Leiter]

While God has no limits to what He can do (See this thread here), does God actually exist in all points in time?

I imagine somebody out there believes God had hit the rewind button. Now, while God could have let events in human history to unfold rapidly fast to view it all and then He could have pressed the rewind button, I do not get any indication He has done that. Also, how could God do that if the future is still moving ever forward? It is like a never ending movie or story.

Others may believe God also has the power to exist in some outside dimension where our time moves super fast from his perspective while we experience time normally. Five of our years of our time could be like 5 minutes from his perspective (when a part of Himself exists in this dimension). But what about the other part? The part of God that is ever active and presently involved in our creation? Does this make sense in light of what we see in Scripture?

The most popular belief among Christians is that God exists in all points in time. However, does God really exist in all points of our time? Does God exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously?

While God most certainly has the power to do this, I do not think this is so.

If God rested (stopped from His work) on the 7th day, and God existed in all points in time, this means that God would still be working in the past in creating everything on the 6 day creation.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).

Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever. Jesus only did this once. For all time!!!

But if God existed in all points in time, God would still be doing this right now. He would be sacrificing Himself more than once. But He would be sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over again. As if God was a slave to time or something. But I do not believe that is the case. Nowhere does Scripture tell us that God exists in some past dimension. Also, nowhere does God say that He is in the future right now, either. Yes, God is our future because our end is in Him, but God does not exist in all points in time.

I think that we need to stay within the limits of Scripture as God's inspired Word. It does not solve all speculative questions. John Calvin had a good rule, "Go as far as the Bible goes, and then stop." That's hard for many people to do in this scientific age, but it's necessary for us who believe in the true God, who is mysterious apart from what he has revealed about himself.

As far as our salvation goes, both Romans 8:29,30 and Ephesians 1 are clear that God knew and loved believers before he created the universe. Thus, he knows, that is, loves true Christians before they are born. The words translated "know" in the OT and NT between individuals means a personal, loving relationship between them, not just knowing with our minds. Therefore, "foreknowledge" means God's "fore-loving" and choice of his own. What other passages would you point to about this question? I can't think of any. Warmest regards, retired pastor Bruce Leiter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your initial posts seems to imply that time is something that is greater than God Himself, which it isn't - God isn't subject to the rules which He Himself sets, makes, and can change.

He only became subject to the rules of our time when the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (insofar as his human nature is concerned - although this point may be disagreeable by the Oriental Orthodox).

As with all creation, God can directly interact with it, but He isn't bound by it.

I am not saying that God is bound by time. I already stated in my first sentence within my OP (original post) that God has no boundaries. God is certainly most capable of existing outside of time or in all points in time. But we need ask ourselves, does He actually exist in that way currently? I don't believe so because it would clearly contradict God resting (stopping from His work) on the 7th day.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sounds like some kind of science fiction movie and not the Bible.

Again, this kind of thinking is foreign to Scripture. I am not totally without fault, I used to think the same way about GOD, until I started to reject the philosophies of this world and it's way of thinking. Your belief comes from time travel fiction and not God's Word. While God certainly has the power to exist in all points in time, this is not what is revealed to us in Scripture. If God existed in all points in time, He would be a slave to time (repeating the same past events we read about in Scripture - over and over and over and over again). But God is the master over time, and time is not master over God.

You cannot get out of your own head.

Seems like 90% of this thread understands it and somehow you do not. But God being eternal and existing out side of time is Biblical. Maybe not within your understanding or making sense, but that doesn't mean it's not Biblical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Or, when Jesus was created human, time existed until His death.

But before He was created human did time exist for Him as the Son of God?

Or after, when He returned to heaven?

I believe time is part of the earthly existance, not eternal or higher than human beings.

Jesus desired for a glory to share in the Father that He once had before the creation of the world.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5).

This means time still operated differently for the second person of the Godhead (i.e. the Living Word or the Logos) before the Incarnation even.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Yes, it is. God says do this on the 7th day or do this on the 10th day, etc. Jesus says there are 12 hours in a day. All time keeping. All math. All these things come from God. So you are disagreeing without really thinking things through logically. Numbers are a part of math. Our time keeping is based on math. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... etc. This is the counting of the passage of time. In fact, several countable seconds or minutes from now, a person is going to reply and mark the passage of time (with math).

I think your problem here is you're conflating the measurement of time with time itself.

Math is a measurement; it isn't something that really objectively exists; Math is simply a formulation in our mind of measurement in terms of the logic of the universe.

If Christ miraculously changed 5 loaves of bread such that it could feed 5000 people, we say He "multiplied" it, regardless of any mechanism. He could have divided it infinitely, He could've instantaneously cloned it, He could have caused them to fade into existence, but regardless of whatever mechanism He used, we will still say He multiplied it because that obeys how we perceive the logic of the world.

If I had 2 apples and 2 apples, and I said I have 5 apples, that doesn't change the fact I have 4 apples - I would just be calling 4 apples 5 apples, because it's how we perceive the rules of logic.

Time itself is something that does objectively exist, however. We try to measure it in order to understand it, applying mathematical rules, but the fact that time objectively moves differently on different planets (according to astrophysics) means that it's a reality that really does exist. If I made the same exact time measurements on two different planets, I would come with two different results, even obeying our mathematical, logical perception, because time is objectively different on these planets.

Even more simple than this is our own planet. We can measure 60 seconds anywhere, but the time of day in Paris, France is different than the time of day in San Francisco, United States, despite both people existing simultaneously and counting at the same rate.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

what are God's 'back parts'?

I assume that you're talking about God's spectacular appearance to Moses in Exodus 34. Since God the Father has no human body and John's visions of "the one on the throne" give us no clue what he looks like, I don't know what his "back parts" look like. Jesus took his human body to heaven. I just think that God put it in language that Moses and we could understand. Some day you and I will see him "face to face." But what else it means, we will find out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You cannot get out of your own head.

Seems like 90% of this thread understands it and somehow you do not. But God being eternal and existing out side of time is Biblical. Maybe not within your understanding or making sense, but that doesn't mean it's not Biblical.

I can say the same for you.
Anyways, you are merely espousing an opinion and it is not offering proof that your position is true.

 

[Neogaia777]

We dictated and maybe do dictate our own reality to one degree or another, yet as for knowing "exactly how that works and operates" and all the very marvelous complexities of it, I do not know it all, or know nearly enough, when it comes to those things...

God Bless!

If we would just change in "what we think to be (or can conceive of or to be) "possible" (vs. impossible) at least, that would be a very good step, and I would think in the right direction... But that would not be the end of it by any means...

God Bless!