God and Time: Does God exist in all points in time?

[parousia70]

Even more simple than this is our own planet. We can measure 60 seconds anywhere, but the time of day in Paris, France is different than the time of day in San Francisco, United States, despite both people existing simultaneously and counting at the same rate.

I have always found this fascinating.

On Planet Earth, in an observable fashion to Human beings, The Past and the Future exist SIMULTANEOUSLY in the PRESENT.

It is always Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow, right now, on earth.

Maybe that's why Jesus said no one could predict the day or hour of His coming, because no matter what day or hour it was to be, the moment it took place, it would always be a different day or Hour depending on where one is on earth at that moment.

 

[RDKirk]

Sounds like some kind of science fiction movie and not the Bible.

Again, this kind of thinking is foreign to Scripture. I am not totally without fault, I used to think the same way about GOD, until I started to reject the philosophies of this world and it's way of thinking. Your belief comes from time travel fiction and not God's Word. While God certainly has the power to exist in all points in time, this is not what is revealed to us in Scripture.

Your basic premise of information collection erroneous. The totality of information about the created universe is not contained wholly and solely within scripture.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

The understanding that space and time form a continuum is a discovered fact about creation.

If God existed in all points in time, He would be a slave to time (repeating the same past events we read about in Scripture - over and over and over and over again). But God is the master over time, and time is not master over God.

No, your understanding is exactly 180 degrees wrong.

Because God created the space-time we inhabit, He exists not only throughout it, but also beyond it:

"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands."

Didn't you used to sing that as a child?

God holds all of space-time "in His hands" and sees it all at a glance.

Just as God sees all of space in a glance, He sees all of time in a glance. God is the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end--simultaneously.

For God, all of space is "here" and all of time is "now." That's why God is not "I was" or "I will be," but He is always I AM. God is in His own continuous present.

Because God exists everywhere and everywhen simultaneously, nothing occurs "over and over." Every moment He created simply is--always is--in His eternal (which translates literally to "outside of time") viewpoint.

 

[RDKirk]

Or, when Jesus was created human, time existed until His death.

But before He was created human did time exist for Him as the Son of God?

Or after, when He returned to heaven?

I believe time is part of the earthly existance, not eternal or higher than human beings.

The thing about being created beings is that there will always be "a time before which we were not."

 

[Neogaia777]

Your basic premise of information collection erroneous. The totality of information about the created universe is not contained wholly and solely within scripture.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

The understanding that space and time form a continuum is a discovered fact about creation.



No, your understanding is exactly 180 degrees wrong.

Because God created the space-time we inhabit, He exists not only throughout it, but also beyond it:

"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands."

Didn't you used to sing that as a child?

Just as God sees all of space in a glance, He sees all of time in a glance. For God, all of space is "here" and all of time is "now." That's why God isnot "I was" or "I will be," but always I AM. God is the constant present.

Because God exists everywhere and everywhen simultaneously, nothing occurs "over and over." Every moment He created simply is--always is--in His eternal (which translates literally to "outside of time") viewpoint.

Father God, restore me (Jesus) to the same (level maybe) (of) glory, (majesty, whatever, (that he may have lost or had less of now and/or after that), That I (Jesus) had with you before the world (or space-time) was (or when there was a singularity), (before it ceased to be a singularity maybe)... (John 17:5)...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your basic premise of information collection erroneous. The totality of information about the created universe is not contained wholly and solely within scripture.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

Yes, and this fact is confirmed for us in Scripture. You cannot get around God's Word. While the creation does point to a creator, it is the revelation of Scripture whereby we can know more about God and time. Genesis 1 sets the foundation for how God brought forth time for us.

The understanding that space and time form a continuum is a discovered fact about creation.

How do you define space time continuum?

"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands,
"He holds the whole space-time in His hands."

Didn't you used to sing that as a child?

God holds all of space-time "in His hands" and sees it all at a glance.

Actually, the song says, He holds the whole world in his hands.
Is this the remix version?

Just as God sees all of space in a glance, He sees all of time in a glance. For God, all of space is "here" and all of time is "now." That's why God is not "I was" or "I will be," but always I AM. God is the constant present.

However, Jesus says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Because God exists everywhere and everywhen simultaneously, nothing occurs "over and over."

This is a contradictory statement. While God most has the power to time travel and exist in all points in time (if He desired), Scripture does not reveal that He is still existing in some past time line somewhere (Whereby all events - past, present, future - happen simultaneously). If such were the case, God would be reliving the past over and over and over again. Does God live in a past time line whereby things have been altered so He does not have to keep reliving the same history over and over?

Every moment He created simply is--always is--in His eternal (which translates literally to "outside of time") viewpoint.

So if God exists in some outside dimension of time, is God merely just watching in this dimension outside of time only? Or is God active in this dimension outside of our time? If God is active, then God could technically not stop from His work on the 7th day (For he would be still working in some other dimension that is outside our time). Is God always connected to a portion of Himself to this dimension of time that is outside our time? So only part of Him is outside of time? I say this because God has been actively involved the history of mankind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Father God, restore me (Jesus) to the same (level maybe) (of) glory, (majesty, whatever, (that he may have lost or had less of now and/or after that), That I (Jesus) had with you before the world (or space-time) was (or when there was a singularity), (before it ceased to be a singularity maybe)... (John 17:5)...

God Bless!

No. The word "world" is talking about the Earth.
Words have purpose and meaning for a reason. It is a stretch to say that the word "world" can mean "space time." Who actually even said that? Is it a philosopher? Or is it God's Word?

 

[Tom 1]

If so, then how could God rest (stop from His work) on the 7th day if He is also working in the past within the 6 day creation still or He is working in the future?

If so, then how could Jesus offer up ONE sacrifice forever if He is still repeatedly re-sacrificing Himself in some past time line?

Time moves forward, Jesus lived (physically) in time. God is, outside of time. Time is not a feature of God’s existence, he is not wrapped up in it. When it’s 10am and when it’s 4pm or when it was the Neolithic God existed, as he does now, outside of time and whatever it measures.

 

[RDKirk]

Father God, restore me (Jesus) to the same (level maybe) (of) glory, (majesty, whatever, (that he may have lost or had less of now and/or after that), That I (Jesus) had with you before the world (or space-time) was (or when there was a singularity), (before it ceased to be a singularity maybe)... (John 17:5)...

God Bless!

We get a glimmer of that from Colossians 1

He is the image [Greek: eikon] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

The Son is God manifest in the created universe. It is through the Son and by the Son that the will of the Father is manifested as creation.

I think when Jesus said, "I am the gate," that He may have been speaking literally, that the created universe (not just the material realm but also the spiritual realm) literally spewed forth out of the mind of the Father through the Son and is Creation.

We may have an easier way to understand what "image of God" means now than ever before. From the Greek eikon we get our word "icon."

So think about the icon on your cell phone screen. Within your phone, there is a program--there is code--within a firmware chip.

You can't see the code. You can't feel it, you can't hear it, you can't smell it. The code within that chip is indiscernible to human senses, in visible. Yet, it is there.

You can see the icon, but the icon not a picture of the code. It is part of the code, and exists within the code. Moreover, you can interact with it. You can see it, you can touch it, and by your interaction with the icon, you can interact with the invisible code. The icon on the screen is the eikon of the invisible code.

Jesus is God manifest in the material world, God we can see with our physical eyes, God we can touch with our physical fingers, God we can hear with our physical ears.

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.

But before He took physical form, the pre-incarnate Son was a being of transcendental power and majesty. The pre-incarnate Son willingly taking the form of a man was like LeBron James willingly becoming an earthworm.

 

[Neogaia777]

No. The word "world" is talking about the Earth.
Words have purpose and meaning for a reason. It is a stretch to say that the word "world" can mean "space time." Who actually even said that? Is it a philosopher? Or is it God's Word?

No, it refers to a "system of things" specifically (world does)... A "way of things", "a" (or an, or and a) "reality", if you will... "Construct" is another good word for it also...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

We get a glimmer of that from Colossians 1

He is the image [Greek: eikon] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

The Son is God manifest in the created universe. It is through the Son and by the Son that the will of the Father is manifested as creation.

I think when Jesus said, "I am the gate," that He may have been speaking literally, that the created universe (not just the material realm but also the spiritual realm) literally spewed forth out of the mind of the Father through the Son and is Creation.

We may have an easier way to understand what "image of God" means now than ever before. From the Greek eikon we get our word "icon."

So think about the icon on your cell phone screen. Within your phone, there is a program--there is code--within a firmware chip.

You can't see the code. You can't feel it, you can't hear it, you can't smell it. The code within that chip is indiscernible to human senses, in visible. Yet, it is there.

You can see the icon, but the icon not a picture of the code. It is part of the code, and exists within the code. Moreover, you can interact with it. You can see it, you can touch it, and by your interaction with the icon, you can interact with the invisible code. The icon on the screen is the eikon of the invisible code.

Jesus is God manifest in the material world, God we can see with our physical eyes, God we can touch with our physical fingers, God we can hear with our physical ears.

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.

But before He took physical form, the pre-incarnate Son was a being of transcendental power and majesty. The pre-incarnate Son willingly taking the form of a man was like LeBron James willingly becoming an earthworm.

Excellent post... And applying that analogy to and with the "code" and the "icon", to an or any "image" (or icon), of the invisible God (or code, that is that code) that we can't see taste, smell, touch or hear, by our natural senses... Anyway, likening it/that to God the Father, and God the Son, along with the scripture, and all the rest is, brilliant...

God Bless!

 

[ToBeLoved]

We get a glimmer of that from Colossians 1

He is the image [Greek: eikon] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

The Son is God manifest in the created universe. It is through the Son and by the Son that the will of the Father is manifested as creation.

I think when Jesus said, "I am the gate," that He may have been speaking literally, that the created universe (not just the material realm but also the spiritual realm) literally spewed forth out of the mind of the Father through the Son and is Creation.

We may have an easier way to understand what "image of God" means now than ever before. From the Greek eikon we get our word "icon."

So think about the icon on your cell phone screen. Within your phone, there is a program--there is code--within a firmware chip.

You can't see the code. You can't feel it, you can't hear it, you can't smell it. The code within that chip is indiscernible to human senses, in visible. Yet, it is there.

You can see the icon, but the icon not a picture of the code. It is part of the code, and exists within the code. Moreover, you can interact with it. You can see it, you can touch it, and by your interaction with the icon, you can interact with the invisible code. The icon on the screen is the eikon of the invisible code.

Jesus is God manifest in the material world, God we can see with our physical eyes, God we can touch with our physical fingers, God we can hear with our physical ears.

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.

But before He took physical form, the pre-incarnate Son was a being of transcendental power and majesty. The pre-incarnate Son willingly taking the form of a man was like LeBron James willingly becoming an earthworm.

I don’t think we can fathem all that God is, but excellent way to try to illustrate it in understandable terms. Interesting.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Sure, but the rules of math and time keeping couldn't themselves exist without creation.

I beg to disagree only because I agree with more of what you've said than anyone else, here.

The rules of math and timekeeping are absolutes. Nothing is ever absolutely two seconds long. There are never exactly two of anything. All of creation is an objective thing, which means we can study it. The objective things are subject to these absolute rules, though. I find that absolutes are something that exist above the objective nature. Infinity is absolute, and God is infinite. Perfection is absolute, and God is perfect. Omniscience, self-existence, eternity and a variety of other things are all just as absolute and divine. This is why I think that the statement that two plus two equals four is something not created. It's an absolute. I think it was true before the universe was created. I think it's an obscure extension of God's own order, like a piece of himself.

God holds the universe together. I think that the rules of logic and math hold the universe together. I also believe that those two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Time was created, and space was created, but the absolutes defining those things are like the shape formed by God's hands around them.

Otherwise, I fully agree with you. The creation of the universe was not just a creation of objects, but of space and time. God is not contained by his creation. Therefore, he stands outside of time. He can interact with it differently at different times, such as working on a few days and resting on a seventh, but he is not blind to the future. He is not being forcibly throttled down the timeline. If he changes the past, then we who are confined to time will see no change.

I don't know if anyone else has this happen, but there have been times when I thought I did something very stupid, or that something really bad happened, and when I prayed that God would change the past I suddenly awoke and it was all a vivid dream. It never happened. If it had happened and I did pray for God to change the past, and if he did change the past, then I would never know that he answered the prayer...unless he gave me a dream about it. It leaves me wondering.

 

[tdidymas]

While God has no limits to what He can do (See this thread here), does God actually exist in all points in time?

I imagine somebody out there believes God had hit the rewind button. Now, while God could have let events in human history to unfold rapidly fast to view it all and then He could have pressed the rewind button, I do not get any indication He has done that. Also, how could God do that if the future is still moving ever forward? It is like a never ending movie or story.

Others may believe God also has the power to exist in some outside dimension where our time moves super fast from his perspective while we experience time normally. Five of our years of our time could be like 5 minutes from his perspective (when a part of Himself exists in this dimension). But what about the other part? The part of God that is ever active and presently involved in our creation? Does this make sense in light of what we see in Scripture?

The most popular belief among Christians is that God exists in all points in time. However, does God really exist in all points of our time? Does God exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously?

While God most certainly has the power to do this, I do not think this is so.

If God rested (stopped from His work) on the 7th day, and God existed in all points in time, this means that God would still be working in the past in creating everything on the 6 day creation.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).

Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever. Jesus only did this once. For all time!!!

But if God existed in all points in time, God would still be doing this right now. He would be sacrificing Himself more than once. But He would be sacrificing Himself over, and over, and over, and over again. As if God was a slave to time or something. But I do not believe that is the case. Nowhere does Scripture tell us that God exists in some past dimension. Also, nowhere does God say that He is in the future right now, either. Yes, God is our future because our end is in Him, but God does not exist in all points in time.

Why I believe this argument is a straw man: it assumes that God is subject to time, aka "God exists...." To claim that Jesus is constantly sacrificing Himself would say that He is "within" time and under its control.

If time is an attribute of God, then God is affected by it. But if God has complete control of time as a part of His creation, then God transcends time and has full control.

Let's go to the scripture to test this theory: God moved back the shadow 10 steps for Hezekiah by word of the prophet Isaiah. This means that God was able to separate time of humanity from time of the universe. So in this case, humanity's time was still going forward, but they got to relive the last 10 "steps" or 10 minutes of universe time. Humans were able to see the clock set back. Therefore God has full control of time, and thus time is subject to Him.
TD

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Time moves forward, Jesus lived (physically) in time. God is, outside of time. Time is not a feature of God’s existence, he is not wrapped up in it. When it’s 10am and when it’s 4pm or when it was the Neolithic God existed, as he does now, outside of time and whatever it measures.

You either did not catch what I said, or you are failing to grasp what I am saying. If God is outside of time, this does not stop God from also being a part of His creation that is constrained by time. On the 7th day after the 6 day creation, God had rested (i.e. stopped from His work). So how can God actually stop from His work if He is existing in some other dimension of time? God would be connected to the past via this outside pocket of time and would be working in the past and thus, He could not truly stop from His work. He would always be connected to the 6th day creation and thereby He could not truly stop in His work.

 

[Neogaia777]

Why I believe this argument is a straw man: it assumes that God is subject to time, aka "God exists...." To claim that Jesus is constantly sacrificing Himself would say that He is "within" time and under its control.

If time is an attribute of God, then God is affected by it. But if God has complete control of time as a part of His creation, then God transcends time and has full control.

Let's go to the scripture to test this theory: God moved back the shadow 10 steps for Hezekiah by word of the prophet Isaiah. This means that God was able to separate time of humanity from time of the universe. So in this case, humanity's time was still going forward, but they got to relive the last 10 "steps" or 10 minutes of universe time. Humans were able to see the clock set back. Therefore God has full control of time, and thus time is subject to Him.
TD

Stopped the Sun (or the earth turning, or suspended daylight or "something") (who knows exactly how he did it or it was done, but it was done) for Joshua...

God Bless!

 

[tdidymas]

You either did not catch what I said, or you are failing to grasp what I am saying. If God is outside of time, this does not stop God from also being a part of His creation that is constrained by time. On the 7th day after the 6 day creation, God had rested (i.e. stopped from His work). So how can God actually stop from His work if He is existing in some other dimension of time? God would be connected to the past via this outside pocket of time and would be working in the past and thus, He could not truly stop from His work. He would always be connected to the 6th day creation and thereby He could not truly stop in His work.

Time is part of creation, and thus "once for all" is once only. You're trying to mix created time with God's transcendence, and make Him subject to it. God is not working His creation in His transcendence; He worked it only in the time of creation (in creation time). Thus, Jesus as part of humanity was crucified in creation time, not in the infinite dimensions of God's transcendence.
TD

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why I believe this argument is a straw man: it assumes that God is subject to time, aka "God exists...." To claim that Jesus is constantly sacrificing Himself would say that He is "within" time and under its control.

If time is an attribute of God, then God is affected by it. But if God has complete control of time as a part of His creation, then God transcends time and has full control.

Let's go to the scripture to test this theory: God moved back the shadow 10 steps for Hezekiah by word of the prophet Isaiah. This means that God was able to separate time of humanity from time of the universe. So in this case, humanity's time was still going forward, but they got to relive the last 10 "steps" or 10 minutes of universe time. Humans were able to see the clock set back. Therefore God has full control of time, and thus time is subject to Him.
TD

This was about the shadow on the sundial being reversed back due to the light in the sky (Which could have been the sun moving back or God providing a miracle of light upon the sundial). Time was not reversing backwards here for Hezekiah. It was merely the light on the sundial changing. There is no mention of how people who spoke backwards and or dogs walking backwards and or a cup of water that spilled was back in the cup again.

 

[tdidymas]

Stopped the Sun (or the earth turning, or suspended daylight or "something") (who knows exactly how he did it or it was done, but it was done) for Joshua...

God Bless!

If God has full control of all inertias of all bodies and molecules of the universe, then He also has control of time, since inertia and time are connected. If God could separate the inertia of all bodies and molecules on earth from the rest of the universe, He could have just as easily done so with time.
TD

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Time is part of creation, and thus "once for all" is once only. You're trying to mix created time with God's transcendence, and make Him subject to it. God is not working His creation in His transcendence; He worked it only in the time of creation (in creation time). Thus, Jesus as part of humanity was crucified in creation time, not in the infinite dimensions of God's transcendence.
TD

I am not denying GOD does not have the power to create things in the way that you suggest, but I just don't think it is something that is really necessary for God to do. God can just as easily be aware of future events in perfect detail, too. God does not need to exist in a pocket of time (outside of our time) in order to see what is going to happen. GOD can calculate every possibility of what will happen with pin point precision.

The problem with GOD being in some kind of outside dimension would basically be like GOD watching re-runs on TV over and over. He could not change the past because it is set for us. It is already done.

 

[tdidymas]

This was about the shadow on the sundial being reversed back due to the light in the sky (Which could have been the sun moving back or God providing a miracle of light upon the sundial). Time was not reversing backwards here for Hezekiah. It was merely the light on the sundial changing. There is no mention of how people who spoke backwards and or dogs walking backwards and or a cup of water that spilled was back in the cup again.

Who said anything about dogs walking backward? All living things, including all people, experienced the clock getting set back. If God reversed the inertia of the Earth, He had to separate the inertial connection with the rest of the universe, and all living things would experience it. How is that any different than all living things experiencing the clock getting set back?

If God has full control of all inertias of all bodies and molecules of the universe, then He also has control of time, since inertia and time are connected. If God could separate the inertia of all bodies and molecules on earth from the rest of the universe, He could have just as easily done so with time.

Any way you look at it, it's speculation. Don't try to put God into a physics box. He is a miracle worker.
TD