2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

Well it seems you didn't comprehend much.

Yet, you just called me Gnostic. So which is it?

And it would be my guess, that this is as far as your 18 months got you. Wiki?

This is why I said you don't even know what gnosticism is. Because it in NO WAY relates to my quote.

You just liked the smoke screen the other poster used, about 18 months ago if I remember right, and you know his few talking points about gnosticism

You are right. I know nothing about anything, and your statement about being a pure spirit in a sinful body, is not a gnostic belief.

Instead of seeing ourselves as God’s image bearers who are gradually being holistically restored in Christ from one degree of glory to the next, we see ourselves as damaged beyond repair waiting to escape our earthly bodies and go to a disembodied state we call heaven.

The reason why I felt gnostic ideas were be better label for this belief system, because a pure spirit in a sinful body was not a belief system that was easy to quantify.

A key component was the rejection of any morality, any grief for sin, and in its most extreme form, becoming gods who have ex-nihilo creative power.

I started this adventure not knowing how far people had gone. At the end I was staggard at the insanity people were embracing. And the reality is actual life destroys these insane notions, but it is worthwhile documenting and understanding how it is structured.

It is no wonder we are in opposite ends of the discussion, because essentially we believe in different worlds.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No need to. gnosticism is unbiblical.

Well, if you do you will go off the rails.

So what are you saying here? Your tradition does not believe He came in the flesh? To me He clearly did. The passages you quoted prove it.

I question you believe those passages because He clearly says we will never perish in John 10:28.....but your tradition doesn't believe it.

I believe Jesus came in the flesh, which is why I quote it.
My point is the flesh cannot be evil, because Jesus had a body.

The cause of sin is us, not our bodies. We are not by nature pure, we are purified. We are not given an eternal spirit which is now us, we are cleansed and promised we will not perish.

Now the gnostic believers I met claimed they were perfect eternal spirits in a flesh body.
Some of the teachers who used to teach like this seem to have calmed down their ideas, except once you say you are an eternal pure spirit in a flesh body, it is difficult to row back from this.

And when we die, Our human spirit or new creation in Christ, that CANNOT sin goes to be face to face with our Lord and Savior. The carnal,sinful flesh is put in the grave, because sin cannot enter the eternal state.

You appear from the above to be one of the gnostic believers.

 

[Gr8Grace]

You are right. I know nothing about anything

Quit your whining, I never said that. I said you don't know what gnosticism is, Just like me.

Freegrace just went through the new creation in Christ, the imperishable seed, and how that new creation CANNOT sin.
1 Pet 1:23~~New American Standard Bible
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Cor 5:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

1 John 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Gr8Grace]

You appear from the above to be one of the gnostic believers.

This is why I know you don't know what gnosticism is. You wouldn't make this baseless claim if you really understood what gnosticism is.

And it appears that you don't think you are a new creation in Christ, are born from imperishable seed, and that no sin dwells in that new creation.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Are you a gnostic believer like gg? Perfect spirit, evil flesh.

Quite pathetic Peter.<<<<< A firm, yet true statement from someone who unconditionally forgives you and loves you

 

[Gr8Grace]

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This verse states in very clear and plain words that condemnation is for everyone who has not believed the gospel.

The words "have not believed" is in the aorist tense; meaning believed in a point of time. Past time.

The Arminian claim that one must continue to believe in order to avoid hell (losing salvation) is refuted by this verse. If that claim were true, Paul would have written it this way:

"so that all will be condemned who do not continue to believe the truth".

So the aorist tense once again refutes the claim of Arminians.

In fact, 2 Thess 2:12 parallels both of these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here's how: Jn 5:24 says those who believe "will not be judged/condemned".

John 10:28 says recipients "of eternal life (believers) shall never perish".

It will be interesting and instructive to see how Arminians, if any do, will respond to this thread.

How can a believer be in true fellowship with the Lord if that believer thinks they may perish?

Honest question. I don't see how it is possible to be in fellowship with Him and still believe that one might perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe Jesus came in the flesh, which is why I quote it.
My point is the flesh cannot be evil, because Jesus had a body.

Where do you think sin resides in us?

New International Version
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

English Standard Version
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Berean Study Bible
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

New American Standard Bible
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

King James Bible
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Christian Standard Bible
What the law could not do since it was weakened by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as a sin offering,

NET Bible
For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

The cause of sin is us, not our bodies.

Scripture disagrees with you.

We are not by nature pure, we are purified. We are not given an eternal spirit which is now us, we are cleansed and promised we will not perish.

Yet you still claim that believers can perish because of lifestyle.

Now the gnostic believers I met claimed they were perfect eternal spirits in a flesh body.

They were idiots who didn't know any Scripture.

 

[LightLoveHope]

They were idiots who didn't know any Scripture.

I do not make judgements, I just observe what people hold to.
Sin does not reside somewhere. Sin is not a thing, that you can pick up and move.
Sinful actions condemn the person to be a sinner, in totality. A murderer is not a murdering hand with an innocent body.

The seat of sin is our sinful desires which reside in our hearts. Jesus puts it like this

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'
Matt 15:19

Jesus says "evil thoughts" not emotions, or passions, but thoughts.
Are we our thoughts? Is the flesh the creator of our thoughts?

One can link evil thoughts to worldly pleasures, experiences which are linked to our physical bodies.
But murder, is a very emotional, hurt, angry response to an external situation.
Murder seems all consuming, not related to our physicality.
False testimony, slander are things of the mind, worked out strategies using everything we are.
Theft is about greed, wanting things we should not have.

So I do not see you can separate someone into parts. We are a whole.

 

[LightLoveHope]

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:3

Sinful flesh is only mentioned once by Paul.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Paul is talking about being in the flesh, but from this language he seems to be refering to being under the control of our passions, sinful desires, core worldly feelings that are natural to man.

Our physicality cannot be separated from our life, so how do you describe Jesus coming as a man, but not submissive to its passions. Paul seems to be describing the difference in the phrase the likeness of sinful flesh. There must have been something different, or else He would have been a sinner.

I would suggest He was always in communion with the Father, knew He was loved and did not withdraw in defence from a lack of love and understanding, because He knew all His life He was loved.

This particular question is one that has divided many through history.
On the particular question of the body and its failures, people with learning difficulties, people with developmental brain issues so the are socially disfunctional, have aberrant desires and impulses, are they bound by the same moral and judgemental principles. It is why homosexuality which may be a genetic disposition emphasis.

What if some people are very passive and Christ like genetically, and others violent aggressive, and abusive individuals with no peace. Is one blessed and the other cursed?

So the flesh defines us, but Gods ways still stand strong. I believe we are a totality of mind, body and soul or spirit. To be a new creation is to be a purified whole.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I said you don't know what gnosticism is, Just like me.

Quite pathetic Peter.<<<<< A firm, yet true statement from someone who unconditionally forgives you and loves you

"gr", you do make me laugh. Gnostic ideas are the flesh is innately evil and the spirit is innately good.
I do not know why you believe I know nothing. The amount I know or not know does not change the truth of a statement. Like calling me pathetic is not loving or caring, it is just an angry man showing their frustration. Cannot help the truth hurting you.

I agree that the elect are called by God and will reign with Him eternally.
It is also true they are a new creation, born of the Holy Spirit, destined to glory, never to fade.

Perfection and the walk is step by step. I take the total sanctification view, which occurs over time and is a path laid out by our creator.

Now how can people know God, walk in His ways and still fall away, and their faith die.
It appears this is just the same as a planted seed getting smothered by weeds or a plant dying because the ground is too hard. These are the parable of the seed and the sower.

Or the parable of the abusive servant who is literally chopped up because of evil behaviour.
The idea of a covenant relationship is open ended, and can be broken, like all contracts we know in our lives.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't see how it is possible to be in fellowship with Him and still believe that one might perish.

I am a sinner, who is not worthy of being forgiven or accepted. I have rebelled and rejected that which is pure holy and true. And yet this King, my Lord and Saviour has embraced me and taken me in and given me a home. I know He allows me to walk away, to destroy and throw into the air all things, but why would I, when I know Him and love Him and know He has my best future in His hands. His Kingdom is founded on the love He gives us, and the love that dwells within. The choice is the foundation, without which it would be dictatorship and imprisonment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not make judgements, I just observe what people hold to.

With biblical doctrine and discernment, one can safely make judgments about what others believe in relation or contrast to Scripture.

Sin does not reside somewhere.

At least you're unabashed about not believing Scripture, given the verses I previously shared.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 8:3

Sinful flesh is only mentioned once by Paul.

How many times does a word or phase need to be mentioned in Scripture before you will take notice of it and believe it?

 

[Gr8Grace]

"gr", you do make me laugh. Gnostic ideas are the flesh is innately evil and the spirit is innately good.

So you believe the flesh is pure good and the Spirit is pure evil. Your gonna have to provide some scripture for this one Peter.

I do not know why you believe I know nothing.

Well for one thing, I already told you I didn't say that. So quit whining about something I didn't say.

Like calling me pathetic is not loving or caring

Quit with the victim card.

I agree that the elect are called by God and will reign with Him eternally.

I have never said that. Whosoever/anyone is saved when they believe in The Lord Jesus And His work for them.
And THEN we are elected to service. Some believers choose to serve and some do not.......Reigning with Him is only promised to those who endure with Him(Namely in His sufferings.) those who choose to live in their self-righteous works or sin will NOT reign with Him.

It is also true they are a new creation, born of the Holy Spirit, destined to glory, never to fade.

So quit with the gnostic accusations then. And quit with 'might perish' belief.....because it contradicts what you just posted here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree that the elect are called by God and will reign with Him eternally.

Once again you've made a statement that is not biblically accurate.

The Bible is specific about who will reign with Christ, and it isn't "the elect".

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Notice the "we", so Paul was including himself along with Timothy in his conditional statements.

The first conditional statement is abouts WHO specifically will reign with Christ. Only those believers who endure. What does that mean? The second conditional statement makes that clear.

So we know that reigning with Christ is based directly on behavior or lifestyle. So this cannot be referring to salvation, which cannot be earned, but is by grace.

The second conditional statement is about the opposite of enduring, or denying Christ. It's either one or the other. And the result is either reigning with Christ or being denied the privilege of reigning with Christ.

Or the parable of the abusive servant who is literally chopped up because of evil behaviour.

God uses a variety of methods in delivering His divine discipline, which includes physical death. And since Heb 12:11 says God's discipline is painful, being literally chopped up only affirms what else the Bible says about it.

Or note what Paul said about the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5. Being turned over to the devil "for the destruction of the flesh". Does that sound like a mere hand slap?

The idea of a covenant relationship is open ended, and can be broken, like all contracts we know in our lives.

Well, only those who are ignorant of Scripture would say this.

But since you continue to think this, why haven't you provided ANY Scripture that says this? That our salvation relationship is "open ended" and can be broken.

Paul wrote that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29).

Peter wrote that we have been born again, not of perishable seed (that's how we were born physically), but by imperishable seed. Meaning born again people shall never perish.

Jesus said whoever believes in Him possesses eternal life (Jn 5:24, 6:47), and those He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

Therefore, salvation is NOT open ended as you opine.

You just keep demonstrating how little you know or understand of Scriplture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

His Kingdom is founded on the love He gives us, and the love that dwells within. The choice is the foundation, without which it would be dictatorship and imprisonment.

What verses can you share that support your claim that His kingdom is founded on the love He gives us and the love that dwells within?

 

[JLB777]

i don't mean to be insulting, but it appears that you are maybe just too dense to grasp the fact that your question is illegitimate, because it is based on a false premise.

It seems every question I ask you seems to fall into your self proclaimed catagory of being “illegitimate”. LOL!!!

When a person asks a question that exposes your man made theology, your canned response is “your question is illegitimate”.




Here’s my question that you keep ignoring which in itself does the job of exposing your false doctrine.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

 

[Gr8Grace]

It seems every question I ask you seems to fall into your self proclaimed catagory of being “illegitimate”. LOL!!!

When a person asks a question that exposes your man made theology, your canned response is “your question is illegitimate”.




Here’s my question that you keep ignoring which in itself does the job of exposing your false doctrine.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Based on these words of the Lord Jesus -


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

So it seems that you and EmSw both reject Paul. Is that why you are not responding to what Paul said in Gal? Paul doesn't carry out The Lord Jesus Christ's teachings and was wrong?

 

[Gr8Grace]

I am a sinner, who is not worthy of being forgiven or accepted. I have rebelled and rejected that which is pure holy and true. And yet this King, my Lord and Saviour has embraced me and taken me in and given me a home.

Amen.

I know He allows me to walk away, to destroy and throw into the air all things

And you will be disciplined. Possibly lose rewards,reign,rank,blessings and have misery in this life if you so choose to live like this........but Peter remains saved. John 10:28

but why would I

Because our sin nature is not only sinful, it is SELF -RIGHTEOUS.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Because our sin nature is not only sinful, it is SELF -RIGHTEOUS.

You seem to want to believe that being forced or imprisoned is a good thing.
If you want someone to take full responsibility for something, they have responsibility for it without restriction. That means if things go wrong it is their fault.

With responsibility comes payment and consequences.
You appear to want the consequences are limited and reversible.

It seems God is declaring, not possible. The nature of who He is, is any rebellion is eternal.

The question is about human impulses, desires. As they are part of our biology, our physical existence is there truly a sense of real separation. There cannot be, because our whole existence comes about because of sexual attraction and the overcoming of the will to meet biological ends.

It is this control and learning the boundaries of our drives, that gives us choice and freedom.
It is also the key question Paul is addressing. And his answer is walking in the Spirit.
The gnostic view, is we are not participants in the fight, but victims who will be released on death.

I am still working through how this plays out, in the wider context.
Pauls emphasises the issue is sowing to our passions, makes them stronger and so will overwhelm us and lead to death, while sowing to the spirit, leads to love, communion and eternal life.

We are therefore the fruit of what we have sown to. And it is this that is the measure that defines our victory or our defeat. Becoming has always been everything.