Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Bible Highlighter]

@ClementofA:

There is a difference between the works of faith vs. the works of the Law:

Works of Faith:

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).​

Works of the Law:
(i.e. the works of the Law of Moses):

"Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:32).

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16).

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).

"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).​

What "book of the Law" existed at that time?
The New Testament Scriptures?
No. This was the Torah (the Old Law).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, in Romans and Galatians (the two biggest books on Justification by Faith), you don't have far to look to see that Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and he is not referring to all law in general. In other words, whenever you read a verse about how Paul says we are not under the Law or not saved by works in the book of Romans or Galatians, just read the previous passages and or the previous chapter or two and you will see some kind of context in reference to the Law of Moses. Nowhere does Paul ever say that this is in reference to the commands of Jesus. Paul says if you break the Moral Law (like murder, etc.), you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So Paul was arguing how we should not go back to the Old Covenant Law and how we are not saved by the Pharisees false religion that said we are saved by "Works Alone" (that did not include God's grace through Jesus Christ).

Paul and James were arguing against two opposite wrong extremes. Paul was arguing against "Works Alone Salvationism" by the Old Law (that did not include God's grace) (Ephesians 2:8-9), and James was arguing against "Belief Alone Salvationism" (James 2:17-18) (James 2:24).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition, the false charge that some of us Christians are wrong for seeking to save ourselves by "Man Directed Works Alone" is not exactly a charge that is able to stick (according to Scripture), either. For...

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27​

(Note: Please hover your cursor over these verses to check them out).

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12). In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 essentially says that if any person says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth (Jesus) is not in them.

So in Conclusion:

Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.

For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin in your life) (1 John 3:8). Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Oldmantook]

He has a lot of quotes, mostly out of context. The idea the you lose salvation is lost the first time you sin is not Biblical. My takes on this is if you can lose salvation you only lose it once. The atonement is once and for all Hebrews 6:4-6

How can you lose your salvation just once? If a genuine believer falls into sin and becomes an alcoholic and Scripture states that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God per 1 Cor 6:10, then according to Scripture, he becomes lost. But what if he genuinely repents, sobers up and lives a life of abstinence? Are you asserting it would be impossible for him to repent and be welcomed back to restoration by the Father? Didn't the prodigal son become LOST and made alive AGAIN? Wasn't he forgiven and made alive in Christ AGAIN when he forsook his habitual sin, repented and sought forgiveness?

Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I thought I'd give you a heads up since he has argued this endlessly, with walls of text and a single argument, you sin you lose salvation. Arguments like this often surround fath and works, Jame 2, 'faith without works is dead' is a popular hobby horse around here. No self respecting evangelical is going to pretend you have to be perfect in order to be saved, which you would have to be, to never sin in thought, word and deed. Anything but perfect righteousness is sin.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks for the heads up. I know they are fighting the license to sin in the theology they oppose. But appealing to you are immediately unsaved again is asking the person to think of themselves and their eternal destiny at the expense of God's character being painted very negatively.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How can you lose your salvation just once? If a genuine believer falls into sin and becomes an alcoholic and Scripture states that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God per 1 Cor 6:10, then according to Scripture, he becomes lost. But what if he genuinely repents, sobers up and lives a life of abstinence? Are you asserting it would be impossible for him to repent and be welcomed back to restoration by the Father? Didn't the prodigal son become LOST and made alive AGAIN? Wasn't he forgiven and made alive in Christ AGAIN when he forsook his habitual sin, repented and sought forgiveness?

Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness.

I think this is a very good point. The problem that Invaliduser shares is that he cannot come to a point of repentance. He has tried but something inside has died and he cannot feel remorse anymore. Does not seem to be the problem on God's side, that is God judged him as "unsaved" but that he cannot come to repentance.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? It seems like you are going out of your way to disagree with me on things I said to others because of our disagreement on the main topic. That's okay. I am not going to hold that against you because I care for you and God commands me to make peace with everyone.

So...peace be unto you, and lets agree to disagree for now.
I think it is best we let things cool down for a while.
We should of course both pray about this topic some more.
Even though I am so confident that I would die for this particular belief, I am always open to praying and asking God ("What if God, I may be wrong? Please show me the verses, Lord.").

I do apologize if some my words before were offensive to you. It was not my intention to offend you. I deeply care for you and all people of the faith greatly. I may not agree with everything everyone teaches, but I do love you and others here by the power of Jesus Christ. So peace be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ. For I am wishing you nothing but good things to you from the Lord Jesus.

I am not angry nor offended at all. I love God very much and am pretty sensitive to theologies that show him to be morally low. Insisting God designes a person "unsaved" immediately, judging them before their time, says bad things about God Himself.

I guess I would ask you to ask God if he decides you are "unsaved" at points where you sinned since walking with Him. Apply to yourself the judgement you apply to others.

I also think you are appealing to people's self interest to avoid sin. "Don't sin cause you will be unsaved again in the eyes of God" seems to be your position. Applease to self interest and does not make God look at all nice.

But we can agree to disagree. I am very certain God does not immediately judge anyone, including David, as already unsaved. I think when one starts down the wrong road, God does his part to warn us. Repentance is our choice. The end of the road is then unsaved, but that is at the end, or perhaps so far down that turning around is impossible. But it is not immediate for sure unless very unusual circumstances.

 

[mark kennedy]

You fail to understand that not all sin is the same. There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus says speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven. Yet, he says speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Son of Man (Himself) can be forgiven. You don't consider the crime of going 5 over the speed limit as the same as the crime of murder; And neither does God. God is fair and just and good.

It's also a lot more than James 2:17, as well. You have to either eliminate, ignore, or change whole sections of your Bible to make a Belief Alone type salvation work. How so? Just check out the many verses below (that you no doubt have to clearly ignore or change). For...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

Ok first of all spaming a dozen verses isnt an argument, It's spam. So far we've went down this road in James 2 and 1 John and you still can't or won't do a sinple exposition. Introducing you to Hebrews 6 you bounce from Hebrews 3 to 10, then you just randomly bounce all over the place.

What's more I've been a Christian some 40 years and have a bachelors in Bible and Theology, I think I know my own theology by now, something you should learn. Justification by grace through faith alone describes conversion, it initiates the sanctification process. When Jesus tells his enemies blaspemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable, it should be noted they had been sayng he cast out demons by Beezulbub since the Beatitudes. These people knew he was the promised Son of David and hardened their hearts against the conclusive miracles that knew about to the point where they were children of perdition, Satan and in Jesus word in Jerusalem (John 8), children of their father the Devil.

Jason I think you mean well but hermenutics is more the quoting verses out of context, there are transcendant principles that tie these things together. Sin isn't just an event or an offense, it an inclination of human nature that is reprobate apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course we must repent and bear fruit, that's called discipleship. But our conversion is only by grace through faith alone, sanctification nessacarily follows. You have never ackowledged that simple uncomplicated aspect of salvation. What's more this quote mining experiment you are so committed to is just not healthy because you keep neglecting the context, which is vital to any serious exposition of Scripture.

Now the proof text is Hebrews 6:4-6, the proposition here is that you can only lose salvation once, assuming you can. From the text and it's natural context of Hebrews 6 how would you approach an exposition of the proof text?

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

How can you lose your salvation just once? If a genuine believer falls into sin and becomes an alcoholic and Scripture states that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God per 1 Cor 6:10, then according to Scripture, he becomes lost. But what if he genuinely repents, sobers up and lives a life of abstinence? Are you asserting it would be impossible for him to repent and be welcomed back to restoration by the Father? Didn't the prodigal son become LOST and made alive AGAIN? Wasn't he forgiven and made alive in Christ AGAIN when he forsook his habitual sin, repented and sought forgiveness?

Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness.

That's not what it says, the chapter starts off discussing how we should move on from the elementary teachings like repentance. Then the writer begins to describes what happens when a person abandons the faith, the way you would if you were a Jewish Christian and went back to legalism under the Mosaic Law. There is nothing suggesting sexual immorality, excessive drinking, the passage so often cited saying drunks, fornicaters, cannot enter the kingdom of heaven is describing the children of perdition, specifically those who recieved the mark of the beast. In 2 Peter and Jude the church was inundated with gross immorality, you could through in 1 Corinthians 6 and the warning to Thyatira. The warnings in Hebrews 6, as in Galations are warnings not to submit to the Judeizers who are trying to turn them back to Pharisee style legalism. You can't do that and be restored to repentance because you would have to abandon grace through faith in favor of works of the Law. It's an if then proposition supported by the proof text definitively.

I never said a believer can lose salvation, I said if they can it's only once and repentance at that point is impossible as the proof text, Hebrews 6:4-6 describes in no uncertain terms.

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks for the heads up. I know they are fighting the license to sin in the theology they oppose. But appealing to you are immediately unsaved again is asking the person to think of themselves and their eternal destiny at the expense of God's character being painted very negatively.

Of course repentance is the gateway to grace through faith, I wouldn't dream of arguing otherwise. But they are proposing that David was lost because if his adulterous affair and saved again when he repented again. That ignores that fact that he harbored a murderer right up until his death bed. So did the Psalms of David get writted by a man who was a list sinner because he had unconfessed sin in his life or a sinner saved by grace who struggled his whole life against the sin of his soul?

 

[Oldmantook]

That's bot what it says, the chapter starts off discussing how we should move on from the elementary teachings like repentance. Then the writer begins to describes what happens when a person abandons the faith, the way you would if you were a Jewish Christian and went back to legalism under the Mosaic Law. There is nothing suggesting sexual immorality, excessive drinking, the passage so often cited saying drunks, fornicaters, cannot enter the kingdom of heaven is describing the children of perdition, specifically those who recieved the mark of the beast. In 2 Peter and Jude the church was inundated with gross immorality, you could through in 1 Corinthians 6 and the warning to Thyatira. The warnings in Hebrews 6, as in Galations are warnings not to submit to the Judeizers who are trying to turn them back to Pharisee style legalism. You can't do that and be restored to repentance because you would have to abandon grace through faith in favor of works of the Law. It's an if then proposition supported by the proof text definitively.

I never said a believer can lose salvation, I said if they can it's only once and repentance at that point is impossible as the proof text, Hebrews 6:4-6 describes in no uncertain terms.

Sorry but the passage interprets itself. When scripture provides its own interpretation, no other interpretation is necessary. You have neglected to account for the Greek present tense parsing which makes it meaning plain. Care to explain the use of the present tense??

 

[mark kennedy]

Sorry but the passage interprets itself. When scripture provides its own interpretation, no other interpretation is necessary. You have neglected to account for the Greek present tense parsing which makes it meaning plain. Care to explain the use of the present tense??

The present tense of what exactly?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry but the passage interprets itself. When scripture provides its own interpretation, no other interpretation is necessary. You have neglected to account for the Greek present tense parsing which makes it meaning plain. Care to explain the use of the present tense??

Would you care to explain what you think the interpretation the scripture clearly provides is? And if this is so clear, why are there differences of opinion.

 

[ClementofA]

The present tense of what exactly?

What you quoted in your post #429 already gave you that:

"Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness."

 

[mark kennedy]

Would you care to explain what you think the interpretation the scripture clearly provides is? And if this is so clear, why are there differences of opinion.

Apparently one of the terms is in the present tense, which might be worth considering if we knew which one. Pesky little details like that are important.

 

[mark kennedy]

What you quoted in your post #429 already gave you that:

"Hebrews 6 does not state that "the atonement is once and for all." Rather, what is does state is that it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance SINCE they are CRUCIFYING and SHAMING Christ. In other words, those who shaming and crucifying Christ are still in the process of doing it, therefore their very ongoing actions demonstrate that they are still in a state of ongoing rebellion and have no interest in repenting. As long as they keep doing that, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance. No repentance = no forgiveness."

That was a reference to Hebrews 10:12, the atonement of Christ was once and for all as compared to the Levitical system that had to be repeated almost continually. Because of the atonement in Christ there is no need for any other sacrifice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok first of all spaming a dozen verses isnt an argument, It's spam. So far we've went down this road in James 2 and 1 John and you still can't or won't do a sinple exposition. Introducing you to Hebrews 6 you bounce from Hebrews 3 to 10, then you just randomly bounce all over the place.

What's more I've been a Christian some 40 years and have a bachelors in Bible and Theology, I think I know my own theology by now, something you should learn. Justification by grace through faith alone describes conversion, it initiates the sanctification process. When Jesus tells his enemies blaspemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable, it should be noted they had been sayng he cast out demons by Beezulbub since the Beatitudes. These people knew he was the promised Son of David and hardened their hearts against the conclusive miracles that knew about to the point where they were children of perdition, Satan and in Jesus word in Jerusalem (John 8), children of their father the Devil.

Jason I think you mean well but hermenutics is more the quoting verses out of context, there are transcendant principles that tie these things together. Sin isn't just an event or an offense, it an inclination of human nature that is reprobate apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course we must repent and bear fruit, that's called discipleship. But our conversion is only by grace through faith alone, sanctification nessacarily follows. You have never ackowledged that simple uncomplicated aspect of salvation. What's more this quote mining experiment you are so committed to is just not healthy because you keep neglecting the context, which is vital to any serious exposition of Scripture.

Now the proof text is Hebrews 6:4-6, the proposition here is that you can only lose salvation once, assuming you can. From the text and it's natural context of Hebrews 6 how would you approach an exposition of the proof text?

Grace and peace,
Mark

Sorry, providing you with Bible verses (that fit the topic of discussion) is not spam.

Definition of spam:

irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.​

If I gave you the verses in bite sized pieces post by post, what is the difference?
Information is not your enemy.
God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Okay if it will make you feel better. We can go down the list one by one.

Verse #1. - “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

This says we are justified (saved) by works and not by faith only (or by faith alone). Funny, how the only place where the Bible mentions "faith only" or "faith alone" it is in reference to how we need to have good works to show a true faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show his faith by his works (James 2:18). So one can no more have faith without works than for rain not to be wet. Works of faith and faith go together like PBJ and or eggs and bacon.

What do you think James 2:24 is saying? Does the context support you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not angry nor offended at all. I love God very much and am pretty sensitive to theologies that show him to be morally low. Insisting God designes a person "unsaved" immediately, judging them before their time, says bad things about God Himself.

I guess I would ask you to ask God if he decides you are "unsaved" at points where you sinned since walking with Him. Apply to yourself the judgement you apply to others.

I also think you are appealing to people's self interest to avoid sin. "Don't sin cause you will be unsaved again in the eyes of God" seems to be your position. Applease to self interest and does not make God look at all nice.

But we can agree to disagree. I am very certain God does not immediately judge anyone, including David, as already unsaved. I think when one starts down the wrong road, God does his part to warn us. Repentance is our choice. The end of the road is then unsaved, but that is at the end, or perhaps so far down that turning around is impossible. But it is not immediate for sure unless very unusual circumstances.

I think it is best you stick with making your case with Scripture instead. Just espousing your opinion about what God thinks is not really a successful case to make. I have shown you verses like Numbers 35:16-18, Leviticus 20:10, 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 6:32, Matthew 5:28-30, and yet I got no word for word commentary on what those words were saying from your perspective or belief. I had seen you try to change Matthew 5:28-30 in the fact that you thought it was talking about "women" when it only mentioned "woman" singular. Maybe that was an accident on your part. I don't know.

Also, it would not hurt to bring up verses that you think teaches that one grievous sin cannot separate you from God. I see places in the Bible where this has taken place like with Adam, Eve, Ananias, and Sapphira.

This is why I don't think you are doing the Bible or basic morality justice (from my perspective or view) on this topic. Convince me. Make your case good with explaining the above verses and bring up verses that defend your viewpoint. Explain to me using a better real world example in how God can agree with horrible grievous sin in order to agree with someone who thinks they can commit grievous sin and still be saved. For to say David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder means that we can can be like a King David and do that, too. We can sin and still be saved, too. No big deal. God just turns a blind eye to evil.

Now, sure; A person may not live that way as a lifestyle, but again, doing evil for a temporary amount of time is no less immoral than doing evil all the time. Both are equally immoral things. Sure, one can be more excessively wrong. But a sin does not become any less immoral act if you just do it once versus say a lot. Morality is based first on it being Qualitative, and it is not first based on it being Quantitive.

 

[mark kennedy]

Sorry, providing you with Bible verses is not spam.

Definition of spam:

irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.​

If I gave you the verses in bite sized pieces post by post, what is the difference?
Information is not your enemy.
God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Okay if it will make you feel better. We can go down the list one by one.

Verse #1. - “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

This says we are justified (saved) by works and not by faith only (or by faith alone). Funny, how the only place where the Bible mentions "faith only" or "faith alone" it is in reference to how we need to have good works to show a true faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show his faith by his works (James 2:18). So one can no more have faith without works than for rain not to be wet. Works of faith and faith go together like PBJ and or eggs and bacon.

What do you think James 2:24 is saying? Does the context support you?

The way you do it is spam, guarenteed. You have really struggled here with the context. James is dealing here with Christians who mistreat other Christians. He is asking a vital question, is this how saving faith works. That's why he reminds them of the royal law and how I know you abandened the context. Anyway Jason that's not the passage I asked you about. It's Hebrews 6:4-6 and the topic is losing salvation. So kindly stop pretending you failed to comprehend and tell me, when you lose salvation in that context can you get it back?

You ignore the fact that David took his sin to his death bed, was he lost all that time?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The way you do it is spam, guarenteed. You have really struggled here with the context. James is dealing here with Christians who mistreat other Christians. He is asking a vital question, is this how saving faith works. That's why he reminds them of the royal law and how I know you abandened the context. Anyway Jason that's not the passage I asked you about. It's Hebrews 6:4-6 and the topic is losing salvation. So kindly stop pretending you failed to comprehend and tell me, when you lose salvation in that context can you get it back?

You ignore the fact that David took his sin to his death bed, was he lost all that time?

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not a clear passage and is challenging to most believers. Trying to use an unclear and challenging passage as your defense is not really a good defense to make. It will also take time to come up with a commentary to leave no stone unturned so that you cannot twist it to into trying to turn God's grace into a license for immorality with this passage. So lets discuss a verse that is easy and plain to understand like James 2:24. It says very plainly that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. The context in James 2 supports this line of thinking. It does not support a sin and still be saved kind of doctrine. The OSAS interpretation on James 2:24 does not work. It is saying that the works of justification are only in sight of God and not man (Romans 4). But that does not fit the context of James 1 and James 2. Nowhere does James make a case about how these sins are only to be justified in the sight of men while one is still saved in God's eyes. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save you? No. Scripture says without faith, it is impossible to please God. I could keep pointing out more of the context if you like, but you probably don't want to hear it.