Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Bible Highlighter]

You need to realize that what you think of scripture in your head IS your own thinking at points. And still you seem to trust it implicitly. Do you know the difference between your own thinking of scripture and what the author had in his thinking which God inspired. (Our thinking of scripture is not necessarily inspired.)

My point was to show exactly that fact. I was showing that his thoughts could not be trusted over what God's Word plainly says.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But you seemed to criticize me over how a believer does not lose their salvation if they commit a grievous sin.

When did I do that? I don't recall that. I do not agree with you this is true. This is an example of what you think does not correspond with the truth. Do you know that some thoughts that go through your mind do not match the real life?

So are you saying now that you just don't know?

I know in better detail that you probably.

If you don't know, then you would not fight for one side with a fire and passion as if you do know. You have taken the position that is the exact opposite of mine. You did not take the position of not knowing whether a person is saved or not if they commit grievous sin. I was getting the impression that you said a person is still saved if they commit a grievous sin. Are you truly saying now that you don't know? I am saying I can know because God's Word tells me very clearly this fact (See 1 John 3:15, Proverbs 6:32, Matthew 5:28-30).

First, I do not go around judging individuals who are Christians but are committing sin. I do not judge. You judge them. I do not. What do you do when you sin, by the way? Do you let others pronounce you unsaved as well? Just wondering. I know how it works. Jesus described it.

If you do not know, then you should not try to defend a position that is the exact opposite of mine.

I know and in better detail that you do. You make a snap decision and that is that. Simple. The actual change is more complex.

A position of not knowing would be about seeing how you can see both sides of the issue as being true. Let me give you an example: I used to at one time believed in Eternal Conscious Torment and Conditional Immortality. I believed both beliefs were potentially true because I honestly did not know. But after I studied Scripture more, and prayed about it some more, in time I have come to believe Conditional Immortality is the true Biblical position to have. You did not seem unbiased and in favor of either view as if you truly did not know. You seemed to be in favor of the exact opposite position of the belief that I hold to on this topic.

I am somewhat informed on this matter and so I have no need to try to see how I can find both sides of the issue to be true. Frankly I find that odd. To know truth, one sees the matter as God sees it. He is not into seeing how both sides of issues are true. I will say that I am not very much into terms that are not in the Bible, that is, man made theological terms. I prefer to use the words the Bible uses for matters. I find them to be more accurate than man made terrms not know to the writers of the Bible.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point was to show exactly that fact. I was showing that his thoughts could not be trusted over what God's Word plainly says.

It sounds like what you think the words says is what it says but everyone else only has their own thoughts which ought not to be trusted over the word (i.e., what you think the word says.) You do not seem to realize that your thoughts are not the same thing as what the Word plainly says. Some of your position is to us plainly NOT what the Word says.

 

[mark kennedy]

It sounds like what you think the words says is what it says but everyone else only has their own thoughts which ought not to be trusted over the word (i.e., what you think the word says.) You do not seem to realize that your thoughts are not the same thing as what the Word plainly says. Some of your position is to us plainly NOT what the Word says.

He has a lot of quotes, mostly out of context. The idea that you lose salvation is lost the first time you sin is not Biblical. My take on this is if you can lose salvation you only lose it once. The atonement is once and for all Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He has a lot of quotes, mostly out of context. The idea the you lose salvation is lost the first time you sin is not Biblical. My takes on this is if you can lose salvation you only lose it once. The atonement is once and for all Hebrews 6:4-6

My main problem is what his version makes God out to br like. Commit a major sin (I have no idea where he draws the line between major and minor sins) and God doesn't wait one minute but pronounces you "unsaved" and therefore doomed. Now he admits one can still repent but I find the description of God to be unmerciful and impatient. What I think happens is what I said, and that is sin makes a wall between God and man. That wall either stays and gets stronger or the man repents and relationship is restored. I am not so quick to judge the matter as though the end is now sealed with "unsaved."

 

[mark kennedy]

My main problem is what his version makes God out to br like. Commit a major sin (I have no idea where he draws the line between major and minor sins) and God doesn't wait one minute but pronounces you "unsaved" and therefore doomed. Now he admits one can still repent but I find the description of God to be unmerciful and impatient. What I think happens is what I said, and that is sin makes a wall between God and man. That wall either stays and gets stronger or the man repents and relationship is restored. I am not so quick to judge the matter as though the end is now sealed with "unsaved."

Check the poll, the vast majority if Christians would agree. Sometimes theologians will discern between temperol and eternal sin, temporal sins can be serious but not nessacarily fatal soiritual, eternal sin means your done firever. While in sin your out of fellowship but not lost, you still need to repent but losing salvation is orders of magnitude greater.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Check the poll, the vast majority if Christians would agree. Sometimes theologians will discern between temperol and eternal sin, temporal sins can be serious but not nessacarily fatal soiritual, eternal sin means your done firever. While in sin your out of fellowship but not lost, you still need to repent but losing salvation is orders of magnitude greater.

I am not surprised. Ignorance is bliss. IF they don't talk to God and God does not talk to them, then they make up words and concepts to fill in the gap of real knowledge from the One who knows. IF they are satisfied with made up stuff, why should God give them any real knowledge. They don't want it. They don't ask for it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Painting a broad brush stroke over David's life is not the point here. We all know David was saved in the end and David was considered a man of God. The point here is whether or not he temporarily lost his salvation when he committed his sins of adultery and murder. For God is not a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) (Romans 2:11-12).

“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the LORD.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.’” But admitting our sin and asking for forgiveness is only half of the equation. The other half is repentance, and David did that as well. Psalm 51 is David’s prayer of repentance to God: “Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!" (Psalm 51:1–2).



I think the above part (reprinted here) from the origional longer posts answers that question.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the LORD.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.’” But admitting our sin and asking for forgiveness is only half of the equation. The other half is repentance, and David did that as well. Psalm 51 is David’s prayer of repentance to God: “Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!" (Psalm 51:1–2).



I think the above part (reprinted here) from the origional longer posts answers that question.

Nice post. Good job!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, 1 John 3:15. It says.... NO MURDERER has eternal life. You want me to believe contrary to this verse in the fact that one CAN be a murderer and still have eternal life abiding in them!!!! I am sorry. I cannot do that. I believe God's Word over what you say!

You forget that Jesus PROMISES us that our sins will be forgiven if we repent.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God's Word says that King David repented. See above post.

When David repented his sin was forgiven and cast as far as the east is from the west.

 

[mark kennedy]

I am not surprised. Ignorance is bliss. IF they don't talk to God and God does not talk to them, then they make up words and concepts to fill in the gap of real knowledge from the One who knows. IF they are satisfied with made up stuff, why should God give them any real knowledge. They don't want it. They don't ask for it.

I thought I'd give you a heads up since he has argued this endlessly, with walls of text and a single argument, you sin you lose salvation. Arguments like this often surround fath and works, Jame 2, 'faith without works is dead' is a popular hobby horse around here. No self respecting evangelical is going to pretend you have to be perfect in order to be saved, which you would have to be, to never sin in thought, word and deed. Anything but perfect righteousness is sin.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You forget that Jesus PROMISES us that our sins will be forgiven if we repent.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God's Word says that King David repented. See above post.

When David repented his sin was forgiven and cast as far as the east is from the west.

If my memory serves me correctly, you believe in OSAS. Generally this view holds to the idea that all future sins are forgiven you. 1 John 1:9 proves that this is not so because you have to confess of your sins in order to be forgiven of sin. If future sin was forgiven you, then there would be no sin that a believer would need to confess because it was already forgiven already by Jesus forgiving future sins for you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I thought I'd give you a heads up since he has argued this endlessly, with walls of text and a single argument, you sin you lose salvation. Arguments like this often surround fath and works, Jame 2, 'faith without works is dead' is a popular hobby horse around here. No self respecting evangelical is going to pretend you have to be perfect in order to be saved, which you would have to be, to never sin in thought, word and deed. Anything but perfect righteousness is sin.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You fail to understand that not all sin is the same. There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus says speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven. Yet, he says speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Son of Man (Himself) can be forgiven. You don't consider the crime of going 5 over the speed limit as the same as the crime of murder; And neither does God. God is fair and just and good.

It's also a lot more than James 2:17, as well. You have to either eliminate, ignore, or change whole sections of your Bible to make a Belief Alone type salvation work. How so? Just check out the many verses below (that you no doubt have to clearly ignore or change). For...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the LORD.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.’” But admitting our sin and asking for forgiveness is only half of the equation. The other half is repentance, and David did that as well. Psalm 51 is David’s prayer of repentance to God: “Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!" (Psalm 51:1–2).



I think the above part (reprinted here) from the origional longer posts answers that question.

In 2 Samuel 12:13-14: When Nathan said that the Lord had put away his sin, this was in reference to his sin in regards to his physical punishment according to the Law of Moses. Capital punishment. We know this was not spiritual death because his son would die in his place. Again, if David's sin was forgiven him, and he was saved, then there would be no need to repent or seek forgiveness with God and desire his salvation back. Eternal Security proponents believe David merely lost his fellowship with God (and not salvation) because of his sin. But that is not what we read in Psalms 51. He repeatedly asked to be forgiven and desired for his salvation back. Note: Joy and salvation are intrinsically linked together (See:1 Peter 1:6-9, Matthew 5:12, Luke 10:20).

In fact, if you believe God was talking about spiritual death, are you saying that a believer can die spiritually? My guess is that is not the case, so 2 Samuel 12:13-14 really does not support your belief here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It sounds like what you think the words says is what it says but everyone else only has their own thoughts which ought not to be trusted over the word (i.e., what you think the word says.) You do not seem to realize that your thoughts are not the same thing as what the Word plainly says. Some of your position is to us plainly NOT what the Word says.

Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? It seems like you are going out of your way to disagree with me on things I said to others because of our disagreement on the main topic. That's okay. I am not going to hold that against you because I care for you and God commands me to make peace with everyone.

So...peace be unto you, and lets agree to disagree for now.
I think it is best we let things cool down for a while.
We should of course both pray about this topic some more.
Even though I am so confident that I would die for this particular belief, I am always open to praying and asking God ("What if God, I may be wrong? Please show me the verses, Lord.").

I do apologize if some my words before were offensive to you. It was not my intention to offend you. I deeply care for you and all people of the faith greatly. I may not agree with everything everyone teaches, but I do love you and others here by the power of Jesus Christ. So peace be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ. For I am wishing you nothing but good things to you from the Lord Jesus.

 

[ClementofA]

Jesus taught that you have to keep the commandments as a part of eternal life (See Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28). So we not only need God's grace (Which is how we are initially and ultimately saved, but we also need to obey as a part of that grace - as a part of the salvation process).

You keep the commandments by walking according to the Spirit:

Gal.5:16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which is received by the hearing of faith:

Gal.3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?

And the Christian walk is, from start to finish, from "faith to faith":

Rom.1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Heb.12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The preaching of the law is not for the righteous, e.g. Christians walking by the Spirit, but for the unrighteous (e.g. the unsaved non Christians):

1 Tim.1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[ClementofA]

Teaching that King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder is teaching a license for immorality. It is wrong and you cannot even see it.

The same argument would apply to OSAS in general.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You keep the commandments by walking according to the Spirit:

Gal.5:16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which is received by the hearing of faith:

Gal.3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?

And the Christian walk is, from start to finish, from "faith to faith":

Rom.1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Heb.12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The preaching of the law is not for the righteous, e.g. Christians walking by the Spirit, but for the unrighteous (e.g. the unsaved non Christians):

1 Tim.1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

As you are aware, the Holy Spirit had inspired men to write the Holy Scriptures. Now, there are many commands given to us in the New Testament by Jesus Christ and His followers (under the inspiration of the Spirit). So we cannot just say it is just a walk in the Spirit (generically) and leave it at that. We walk in the Spirit when we obey God's Word (the Bible). Matthew 19:17-19 mentions the keeping of moral law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) as a part of life. Luke 10:25-28 mentions loving God (with some details) and loving your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. This would not be just loving God and our neighbor as we define it, but it would be as how the Bible defines it.

As for not being under the Law:

This not in reference to God's laws in general. This was in reference to the Torah or the 613 laws of the Law of Moses (contractually speaking) that was given to Israel. Yes, certain laws have been repeated in the New Testament, but we seek to follow the commands in the New Covenant because that is our new contract that we follow. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So when Paul appears to speak against the Law or works, he is referring to the Old Law and not the laws given to us by Jesus.

Why did Paul appear to attack the Old Law at times?

Because new believers were being deceived by Jews to think they had to first be circumcised in order to initially or ultimately saved by God. This was never the case even in the OT. Circumcision was only a requirement after one first believed. So these Jews that were deceiving these new believers were all mixed up and confused about how circumcision worked even the OT (For it was "belief first" and then faith: See Romans 4:9-12; Note: Circumcision was a requirement when the OT was in effect: See: Genesis 17:14). Anyways, circumcision is NOT a part of the New Testament. There is no command given to us by Jesus or his followers to be circumcised as part of being saved or right with God in any way. But these Christians were deceived into thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved. We can glean (from Scripture) that is why Paul fought so strongly against the "Old Law" and "Works Alone Salvationism" as he did. Here are the verses:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

The problem of "Circumcision Salvationism" is even made more clear for us at the Jerusalem Counsel. Here are the verses:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The same argument would apply to OSAS in general.

I agree.

 

[Oldmantook]

This will be my last reply to you in this area as it appears to me that you keep asking the same/similar questions and I keep giving the same/similar responses thus making it unproductive. If you disagree, so be it.

Where do you see this idea in the Scriptures?

Romans 2:6-8 says, “God will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”
Have I not repeatedly written to you that salvation requires both belief and works that demonstrate obedience? Our works of obedience to God are the demonstration/evidence that we are saved. No works = questionable salvation.

How would one ever know if their "works" are good enough to be saved according to that standard of "works...obedience"?

I repeatedly explained the difference in works when the Bible uses qualitative measures and not quantitative measures in judging one's works. You insist on your own personal standard of quantity to the contradiction of Scripture.

Were you saved by what Titus 3:5 says or by your "works in righteousness" of "obedience to God"?

Yes, the verse states we were not saved by our righteous works. Do our own righteous works done in our own/strength save us? Obviously not, so your problem is??

Works are merely a fruit, not the root or cause of salvation:

I never wrote that works were the root - I wrote exactly the opposite. I suggest you not misstate my position

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Were you saved by your own works or believing the gospel of Jesus Christ:

You do realize that you have committed a logical fallacy don't you? It neither one or the other but BOTH. One must believe (Jn 3:16) and obey (Heb 5:9) for eternal life.

1 Cor.15:1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Which is the power of God unto salvation to believers [not workers]:

You believe only? Good luck with that. What if you believe but don't obey? What if you believe but take the mark of the beast? Good luck with that.

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Works of the Law don't save. Works of obedience to God demonstrates that one is saved.

Galatians 5:4-8
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

Yup, no problem with that. You fail to understand that Paul is referring to the Law (works of the Law). He is not referring to good works which we were created to do (Eph 2:10).

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:4,5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

I hear an echo named works of the Law.

This is my last reply regarding this subject - you can believe whatever you wish.