2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[Gr8Grace]

Keep reading my friend he hasn’t finished the message yet.

“Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth. Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith. But God’s truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “All who belong to the Lord must turn away from evil.””
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15-19‬

Yeah, I have read it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Over emphasis. The cultural setting of faith is often important to see how preaching adapts and changes. In the past when life was short and brutal, people snatched away, judgement and getting right with God was a common theme, because that is what people emotionally often felt.

When were people snatched away and by whom? I think more people are snatched away today and it makes the news. Life only short by average since more died in childhood bringing the average way down. And I dont' see that we ought not to do as Jesus taught because the culture has changed.

In todays society, financial success and security are desired, while anxiousness over the future here on earth is a common theme.

I assure you, financial success and security as to material needs being met was always desired. This was more so earlier than now when food was not always available.

So the preaching now centres on security and being safe, part of the group, rather than sin and getting right with God, which is deemed as condemnation and running oneself down. A more encouraging twist is financial success by projecting ones dreams in faith. And when success comes, it is because of the miracle of God being involved.

People are more narcissistic and worldy and so is the church.

It used to be preaching was all about repentance and getting right with God and trusting the cross for salvation. I hear these words quite rarely now, rather open heaven, blessings from on high, super spiritual experiences. Within this context, joining the club, is deemed to be everything, and the fruit irrelevant. One believer put it like this, he would only behave well to make a good impression for Jesus as a witness, but otherwise would carry on as usual.

The truth of the gospel is lost to a great degree as people only want what is good for them now. But the above I agree with. Repentance is costly and unpleasant but no generation liked it. People are not encouraged to get right with God but to get salvation out of GOd. One poster here goes on and on about how we actually possess salvation like some kind of effect that can never be lost or undone cause it is an effect. But this is not cultural nor changes iwth the years. Getting right with God is always the same. People just don't feel the need to do that. They are offered Heaven and can possess it thinking no matter what sin they do it does not matter.

Another believer said trying to be righteous was a nice goal, but one failure or sin made it pointless. To my mind what they are expressing is a total lack of comprehension of sin and relationship with Jesus. They feel no hurt or remorse or sorrow when they sin, hurt others and themselves. So everything is just a tick box idea, and writing themselves off after every problem or issue. Seeing love growing in their hearts and transforming them so literally the battles and issues change and disappear, or are put into context, does not cross their mind or experience.

The ones I talk to like the idea or expect the truth to be that God is making love grow in their hearts without them having to say no to any desire they happen to have. Painless under anthesia heart transplantation is what they want. They do not want to say "no" to their desires so they expect God to just change their desire so they never have to deny themselves any pleasure. This is very common.

This appears to be a heart issue, and layers of defence to make them blind. We need to be aware this is not an argument but a spiritual reality, and only occasionally can we help bring light into the situation.

You are very right, I am afraid. Wise words, my friend. Wise words. Sigh...all too true.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Like I said. If we have to have others grovel at our feet and kiss our holier than thou butts in order for us to forgive them.....We ain't walking in the Spirit.

Let us put this in context. You do not believe we need to humble ourselves before God in repentance and sorrow to receive forgiveness.

An arrogant sinner is doomed to judgement.

May the arrogant be put to shame for wronging me without cause; but I will meditate on your precepts.
May those who fear you turn to me, those who understand your statutes.
May my heart be blameless toward your decrees, that I may not be put to shame.
Psalm 119:78-80

The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled),
for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan,
Isaiah 2:11-13

The LORD sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.
Psalm 147:6

The people of Nineveh had to respond to God in the face of judgement

Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink.
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish." When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Jonah 3:7-10

Humbling oneself is sorrow and regret is the only way to approach the Lord as a sinner in need of forgiveness. This is a fundamental reality of spiritual truth and wisdom. Anyone who has not understood this does not know God or His will.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Salvation is not unconditional. God’s love is unconditional but His wrath is not. If salvation was unconditional then universalism would be true and no one would go to the lake of fire.

It is amazing that the vast majority of believers don't know that Christ paid for ALL sin. Sin is not going to be judged, Christ did it on the Cross. WORKS/SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS/DEEDS/HUMAN GOOD/ EVIL will be judged Because they never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(ergon/works/deeds NOT sins.)

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(Ergon.works/deeds NOT sins.)

This is why we need to recognize we are a sinner, and believe Christ died for our sin's in order to be saved. There is no other way. Unbelievers do not pay for their sins. They pay for all the other ways that they WORKED to be saved.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Emotions

It is an interesting response some made to the question of emotions. They talked as if emotions do not drive them or effect them at all. But strangely this suggests the exact opposite.

If emotions dominate their lives, but to admit this would be to overthrow the emotional power, to even admit this was going on, is actually impossible for them. Now this reality is ironic, because not only are they lying they are slaves to their own emotional experiences and are not aware of it. It is like a puppet who suddenly sees the strings.

One truth is obvious, if you know your influences and biases, they are no longer your master, but your choice. So those who openly express emotions and know the fine interplay of joy, love, peace, patience, kindness, mourning, sadness, perseverance, anger, frustration then they can choose to move from one to another.

In a conversation about identity passes, one man expressed he hated the idea that anyone would know where he was, and would always oppose it. It later turned out he was having an affair while still living with his wife, so he had a good emotional reason to want to keep his activities quiet.

Jesus said simply, people hated the light because their deeds were evil. But it was not the evil deeds they worried about, but others knowing how evil they really were.

So people appear honest and have integrity, while lying to themselves and others and not understanding what is going on.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It is amazing that the vast majority of believers don't know that Christ paid for ALL sin. Sin is not going to be judged, Christ did it on the Cross.

This is simply false teaching. The easiest way of demonstrating this is did Paul rebuke the corinthian church for sin with the aim that they repented and walked righteously? Yes.

Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while-- yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
2 Cor 7:8-9

The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Rev 9:20-21

People are being judged for their sin, and they are condemned because they have not repented.

Only an unrepentant sinner would believe God is interested in prideful people with no sorrow but think Jesus has forgiven them. But this forgiveness is of no use, as today, tomorrow and the next day they still do evil, follow evil and have no desire to do otherwise. Why would they expect to ever enter heaven?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Heaven Gate

Nothing sinful will enter in.
So people, we have to be transformed and cleansed to enter in.
Like any house clearing job, it is hard work, dirty and needs to be thorough.

And for those who think the cleanup squad will do it for them, they need to
wake up to the reality it is demolition or be clean.

Jesus is willing to teach us, empower us, walk with us, and teach us all we
need to know and do, but we have to do the doing. And it will cost us our
lives, and everything we hold dear will have to be given up. Oddly this is
actually for our own good, and much more will be given back, often the
same things, but cleansed and put right.

The enemy will get false teachers to claim cleansing is evil, and futile and
trying to prove you are worthy. They are right Jesus calls us worthy of Him
if we do as He asks, because that is why He died on the cross so that we
might believe Him and walk in His ways.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Let us put this in context.

No, your taking it out of context. The Lord Jesus Christ says we MUST forgive unconditionally. You seem to be resisting this fact.
Matt 18~~21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

But up to seventy times seven~~ An obvious every time, all the time statement.

You do not believe we need to humble ourselves before God in repentance and sorrow to receive forgiveness.

Which just goes to show that you are not here to discuss things with anyone.

I boldly go to Him and acknowledge my sin to Him. Because I know I am justified through His Son.

My feelings, emotions and sorrow carry no weight, in His willingness to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness..............To reestablish my FELLOWSHIP with Him. My position(His child) in Him is always rock solid.

 

[LightLoveHope]

My feelings, emotions and sorrow carry no weight

God listens to the suffering, the poor, the needy, the down trodden, the hurt.
He has compassion on the humble, the contrite.

The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering."
Exodus 3:7

In my distress I called to the LORD; I called out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry came to his ears. 2 Sam 22:7

He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters.
He rescued me from my powerful enemy, from my foes, who were too strong for me.
They confronted me in the day of my disaster, but the LORD was my support.
2 Sam 22:17-19

The LORD has heard my cry for mercy; the LORD accepts my prayer.
All my enemies will be ashamed and dismayed; they will turn back in sudden disgrace
Psalm 6:9-10

For this is what the high and lofty One says- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.
Isaiah 57:15

I was told once I would not submit to correction. The people who spoke like this are from the group that is being represented as opponents of righteousness and walking in the way of Jesus.

What is being demonstrated is they have no empathy or emotional understanding of either hurt, pain and sorrow, or joy, rejoicing and victory. So little wonder they are unable to heal the wounded, bound up the broken hearted and make straight the paths of the lost. Because in their eyes none of this exists.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
It is amazing that the vast majority of believers don't know that Christ paid for ALL sin. Sin is not going to be judged, Christ did it on the Cross.

This is simply false teaching.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Tim 2:6~~New American Standard Bible
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, your taking it out of context. The Lord Jesus Christ says we MUST forgive unconditionally. You seem to be resisting this fact.

Here is a big shifting of subject. One is how we approach the Lord.
The other is how we approach others.

We are told unless we forgive others we will not be forgiven.
What is clear also is forgiveness from the heart is not being talked about here or being honest about the hurt involved. It is staggering how the enemy wishes to accuse and switch issues all the time, without focus.

We cannot forgive from the heart until we know how the heart is and how it works and to even acknowledge we are hurt. And the key to searching for forgiveness from another is to humble ourselves and say sorry. And to understand the hurt, we need to acknowledge that we have been hurt in the past and how badly that feels. We can then seek forgiveness in the knowledge we feel its pain and can truly empathise with another.

Is our forgiveness unconditional?
"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"
John 20:23

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3

The above verse implies without repentance there is no forgiveness.
One solution to this may be personal forgiveness and judicial forgiveness.
I can forgive someone their hurt of me, so act as if it has not happened, but their sin still remains. If they repent, then as ambassadors of Christ we can forgive them of their sins, so this is judicial forgiveness.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
It is amazing that the vast majority of believers don't know that Christ paid for ALL sin. Sin is not going to be judged, Christ did it on the Cross.


1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Tim 2:6~~New American Standard Bible
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

"the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

A summary phrase can be taken in more than one way, because it is a summary of the truth, and not complete in itself. A sacrifice in the temple was for sins done up to that point on behalf of the person repenting or for the nation. It never went forward in time, but spoke of the faith and continuing desire to walk with God and in His ways.

The interpretation of the removal of the penalty of sin past, present and future is to say sin has no spiritual consequences and is not the issue God has with creation or us any more. But this is just allowing unresolved sin to continue.

A better interpretation is Jesus's sacrifice on the cross opens the door for those who choose to enter and take its meaning and inheritence as their own, but only for them. And the access is no longer just to the jews but to the whole world.

The reason why this is true is because the alternative is universalism and accepting we are defeated and enslaved by sin all our lives, which is a denial of the apostles and disciples lives, words and testimony, let alone every follower of Jesus today.

 

[Gr8Grace]

God listens to the suffering, the poor, the needy, the down trodden, the hurt.
He has compassion on the humble, the contrite.

You cut off the important part of that quote and the context of that little snip it.

It is not humble, to be proud enough to say, " Look how sorry I am for you God! I am fasting, I gave away my riches! I am crawling in the gravel for You God. I am lashing myself for you God! Therefore, on this basis, I did enough for you to forgive me."

 

[Gr8Grace]

One solution to this may be personal forgiveness and judicial forgiveness.

THE solution is fellowship. We forgive unconditionally, but fellowship is not restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.
Simple.

They are still our brothers, and they are still forgiven by us, but fellowship isn't restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You cut off the important part of that quote and the context of that little snip it.

It is not humble, to be proud enough to say, " Look how sorry I am for you God! I am fasting, I gave away my riches! I am crawling in the gravel for You God. I am lashing myself for you God! Therefore, on this basis, I did enough for you to forgive me."

So you a guilty man, about to die justly for a crime, will not show sorrow or pain for the evil one has done, because it is just your power against God and stuff Him. It that is truly your heart then you deserve your fate.

If on the other hand it is a mistake, a confusion of body, soul and spirit, and you desire to walk another way, and wish to show this intent through sorrow, through pain for the hurt you have caused to show their is a hope for living a different way, the God in His mercy might relent.

God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish
Jonah 3:9

In your mind, Gr, to do this is to earn mercy. But this is crazy, because it is just holding out the possibility of another chance with another outcome. If the outcome is going to be the same, one deserves to be judged and destroyed because literally one is a destroyer and bringer of death.

Gr, I have little sympathy for you to believe being nice to people is earning their niceness back rather than this is how we love. To even talk like this is to not know what love is, or hurt, or cuddling someone in distress, and helping them be restored.

I recommend counselling and talking about your fear of being humble and feeling sorrow for hurt you have caused. It is such distorted view on life not to understand or be honest about. God help you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

THE solution is fellowship. We forgive unconditionally, but fellowship is not restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.
Simple.

They are still our brothers, and they are still forgiven by us, but fellowship isn't restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.

Do you know what forgiveness from the heart is, if you never look into your own heart?

 

[Gr8Grace]

Gr, I have little sympathy for you to believe being nice to people is earning their niceness back rather than this is how we love. To even talk like this is to not know what love is, or hurt, or cuddling someone in distress, and helping them be restored.

I recommend counselling and talking about your fear of being humble and feeling sorrow for hurt you have caused. It is such distorted view on life not to understand or be honest about. God help you.

Still the same ole Peter aren't ya?

Here I am the one teaching we are to forgive and love UNCONDITIONALLY and at ALL TIMES.

You resist this fact, and then say all these lies about me.

 

[LightLoveHope]

THE solution is fellowship. We forgive unconditionally, but fellowship is not restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.
Simple.

They are still our brothers, and they are still forgiven by us, but fellowship isn't restored until acknowledgement of the break in fellowship.

Interesting idea. You have no sorrow for sin, refuse to repent or walk in the ways of Jesus, then how can I say you are my brother at all? What evidence is there you have any faith in Jesus or the cross?

I would say to the Lord, He knows He broke my heart, and humbled me, taught me how to love, to walk, to praise, to rejoice, to forgive, to mourn, to weep, to be alive, to repent, to know the truth from a lie, to see healing, to know forgiveness and grace, to see His hand in all I do, and to share His wonderful truth and love to others. So to me you appear not what I know at all, or understand is Jesus or in the believers I fellowship with.

So it is hard to have any acceptance of what you are sharing. I wish I could say otherwise, as I love His people.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Do you know what forgiveness from the heart is

Yeah, I do, And my understanding of it comes from His mind. My 'heart' would have never came up with unconditional forgiveness and love.

if you never look into your own heart?

Who said I never do?

Seems you ALWAYS look at your heart. That is why unconditional forgiveness and love is an enigma to you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You resist this fact, and then say all these lies about me.

It is you who have denied you need to feel sorrow for sin.
Is this a lie? You do feel sorrow for sin, amen.

Or are you saying I should not be loving and nice to you in case you think I am trying
to earn your friendship? Is this a lie also? You want me to be loving and nice because
that is what we are in Christ, then amen.

If not what lies are you accusing me of?
Maybe it is putting you in a bad light, or letting the light shine on your ideas about
not feeling sorrow for sin and hurting others. I think this is what you are upset about.

Pride comes before a fall. So many times people come with their ego and points, the
ultimate argument to defeat the opposition, and opps, missed the target.

False teaching about sin and sorrow is so blindingly nonsense. Like going to a child who
just hit another and saying, thats ok, play nicely and forgive each other as if it never
happened, and if it happens again, so what, just carry on. That is simply abuse and
bullying by one party on another.

The guilty party has to stop or be removed. The victim needs to be restored, put right,
and protected, and if the guilty party is prepared to say sorry, be forgiven and the
relationship restored. For the victim, they often have hit others, so understanding their
guilt and the ease with which these things are done, forgiveness is the right course, no
matter what the other party does. Now this is emotional reality, as true to non-believers
as to believers.

It appears some cannot accept this, and so cannot accept how God clearly deals with us
through scripture and will lie, distort and miss-represent everything to fit their agenda.