2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Correct. It is the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the CROSS that is the strong point of His FREE Grace.

It would not surprise me if agriculture was required in your theology......Grow grapes or DIE.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just think:

If Paul would have remained Saul......He would be EmSw's SUPER hero. Sad.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Gr,

I think you missunderstand me. I am not commenting on you personally but addressing certain positions and the place some people are in.

Do you do this because you can't refute Gr8Grace's and my theology, or what?

Why else would one keep bringing up what "some people" claim or think? Who cares? This discussion is between you and us. So focus on what WE post, and forget about these "some people".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do believe what He said, that His sheep will never perish. Amen to that.

Then just admit that you believe in eternal security for all who have believed in Jesus for their salvation.

It is a true anchor from the King do His people.

Absolutely!

As Paul says we need to take these promises to heart and test that we actually dwell in Christ

Actually, Paul never said any such thing. Nor did any other inspired writer.

We're not the ones dwelling in Christ. He is the One who dwells in our hearts. You've got it backward.

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12:1

This verse does not support your backward claim.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
2 Corinthians 13:5-6

Do you understand the phrase "in the faith"? Most don't and assume it means to examine to see if you are saved. But given all the promises about salvation, that command would be worse than silly.

What it means is to examine your life to see whether you are LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE. Not whether you are saved, but living that way.

We test ourselves by looking at our behaviour, our loyalties, our hearts.

And that's how we determine whether we are living the Christian life.

If our hearts long for the world and the things that are the worlds, we have not yet grasped Christ and the love that is eternal. But if our hearts rejoice in Him and His works and will, amen, welcome brother and sister in Christ.

No, believers are either living the Christian life, filled with the Spirit (which you still seem not to understand) or are living the fleshly life, by grieving/quenching the Spirit.

That was Paul's point.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do you do this because you can't refute Gr8Grace's and my theology, or what?

Why else would one keep bringing up what "some people" claim or think? Who cares? This discussion is between you and us. So focus on what WE post, and forget about these "some people".

Hi Free,

You make me laugh. You claim you are objective and talk about facts. If you are talking facts, then who holds them is not relevant. But I think you want to make it personal. Why is that?

And I am not sure you have a "theology" as such. You want to talk about security in Christ, amen. We agree we have security in Christ, Praise the Lord, in the cross is our stand.

Or are you talking about something else? Are we not brothers in Christ agreeing on what Gods word speaks to our hearts through the Holy Spirit?

I am just here to shout about Christ light of love, His empowering of victory over sin and death, Amen.

The reason I say some people, because I draw on years of interaction with different believers who come from various theological groups, and are good examples of the false teaching and heresy it leads to .

Paul is very keen on one thing, learning to know Christs love, and how immeasurable it is, Halleluyah.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39

Thankyou Lord that you bring us the victory through the cross, to know you power and love to transform us from sinners into your people able to be blameless before, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Then just admit that you believe in eternal security for all who have believed in Jesus for their salvation.

I believe in Jesus not eternal security. Do you see the difference?
In knowing Jesus and His will is our walk, not promises from a distance held in rebellion and sin.

And this is exactly what this language does, so just leads to error and damnation.

Jesus rewards His people, those who are victorious.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 3:12

The error is to believe we are not called to respond, that we do not have a responsibility to have fruit, to be children of the light, to walk in His ways, to be our hearts desire. To not do this is to deny who Jesus is. Talking with believers convinces me more how empty and lost many are with simple phrases while knowing in their hearts they are neither sorted out or victorious or even happy.

It is like having the intentions of holding a birthday party for someone, but never actually doing it.
The intentions are nothing if not acted on, just a pipe dream, a delusion and meaningless. You must have the intention before the action, but it is the action that shows the intentions were real.
So Jesus's promises His people, who act according to His word, and no one else.

It is this divide you resist and seem incapable of accepting. A goat will never enter the Kingdom, and a goat cannot change into a sheep.

It appears to me self manipulators want to do what God does not do, turn dogs and pigs into sheep, and then deny sheep can be dogs and pigs again. In this analogy, Paul says the people of God, the jews were rejected so we could be grafted in to the vine, which also goes against the language some want to use about the people of God.

The true root here is disbelief and sin. Sort that out and the wisdom of God becomes very clear.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do you understand the phrase "in the faith"? Most don't and assume it means to examine to see if you are saved. But given all the promises about salvation, that command would be worse than silly.

Be light to everyone, let his light shine, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I noted:
"Do you do this because you can't refute Gr8Grace's and my theology, or what?

Why else would one keep bringing up what "some people" claim or think? Who cares? This discussion is between you and us. So focus on what WE post, and forget about these "some people"."

Hi Free,

You make me laugh.

I'm glad that I have that effect on you.

You claim you are objective and talk about facts. If you are talking facts, then who holds them is not relevant.

No, it's totally relevant. You know the phrase, "just the facts, ma'am."

But I think you want to make it personal.

Why do you think so incorrectly? Are you reacting emotionally, when being objective is way more accurate?

Why is that?

Yes, good question. Why do you think that way?

And I am not sure you have a "theology" as such.

You can be quite sure my theology is biblical. Have you not noticed all the verses I cite and quote that say exactly what I believe?

You want to talk about security in Christ, amen. We agree we have security in Christ, Praise the Lord, in the cross is our stand.

Then you, too, have a biblical theology about eternal security.

Or are you talking about something else? Are we not brothers in Christ agreeing on what Gods word speaks to our hearts through the Holy Spirit?

I can only speak for myself. And God's word does speak to my heart through the Holy Spirit.

I am just here to shout about Christ light of love, His empowering of victory over sin and death, Amen.

The reason I say some people, because I draw on years of interaction with different believers who come from various theological groups, and are good examples of the false teaching and heresy it leads to .

The point of these forums is to discuss what the Bible means to others on this forum. Not about "some people" out there "somewhere". They are not a part of this forum.

Paul is very keen on one thing, learning to know Christs love, and how immeasurable it is, Halleluyah.

Amen.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39

Yes, another great verse on eternal security. (v.38)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe in Jesus not eternal security. Do you see the difference?

No. There is no difference. It was Jesus who said He gives believers eternal life and that they shall never perish. So to believe in Jesus is to believe that one is secure in Him and shall never perish.

In knowing Jesus and His will is our walk, not promises from a distance held in rebellion and sin.

John 10:28 isn't even close to some 'promise from a distance'. It's a GUARANTEE that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.

Maybe you don't really believe that? Seems that you do not.

And this is exactly what this language does, so just leads to error and damnation.

What language, exactly?

Jesus rewards His people, those who are victorious.

Do you mean with salvation, or eternal reward? Please clarify.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 3:12

You quote a number of verses but rarely explain what you think they mean.

The error is to believe we are not called to respond, that we do not have a responsibility to have fruit, to be children of the light, to walk in His ways, to be our hearts desire.

Neither Gr8Grace nor I believe that error.

It is this divide you resist and seem incapable of accepting. A goat will never enter the Kingdom, and a goat cannot change into a sheep.

I have no idea why or how you come up with this "divide" that you think I'm resisting. Or why you assume that I think a goat will enter the kingdom.

Please clarify why you think all this.

It appears to me self manipulators want to do what God does not do, turn dogs and pigs into sheep, and then deny sheep can be dogs and pigs again. In this analogy, Paul says the people of God, the jews were rejected so we could be grafted in to the vine, which also goes against the language some want to use about the people of God.

Once again you've brought up irrelevant people with irrelevant ideas.

Can you please just focus on what I post, if you disagree?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Do you understand the phrase "in the faith"?"

Be light to everyone, let his light shine, Amen.

Is that really your answer to my question?

 

[LightLoveHope]

No. There is no difference. It was Jesus who said He gives believers eternal life and that they shall never perish. So to believe in Jesus is to believe that one is secure in Him and shall never perish.

Hi Free,
There are lots of differences in this world, ways of talking, thinking, being.
I can believe in Jesus, in who He is and how He will react, or I can believe in something that is said and one aspect of the idea or message being expressed. We can in effect make an idol out of anything, and then centre everything else around it.

If you go rock climbing the rope that keeps you safe is there when things go wrong or you need a rest. It is not the point about the climb but helps reassure. So the promises are an encouragement, because they are something to look forward to, but they are not in themselves the reason for the walk.

So the prize for running a race is not primarily why you run. You run because you want, and you like it, the prize makes a race more important and more rewarding that one without a prize.

So it is possible to make everything hang on the promises, and literally destroy or ignore the whole purpose of a relationship with God and victory, and cleansing, and love and fellowship.

 

[JLB777]

lol. John 10:28 is such a CLEAR and STRAIGHTFORWARD verse about eternal security, that I don't need any more verses.

No one from the OSNAS ilk has been able to refute what I have pointed out about what Jesus meant in that verse.

However, to charge me with having just a "one-verse" theology, not to worry. There are many verses and passages that directly teach eternal security. It's just that John 10:28 is SO CLEAR, why discuss other verses.

Here is a list of the verses and passages that teach eternal security clearly.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Therefore, the gift of God being eternal life, is irrevocable

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

All who have been sealed when they believed, were sealed for the day of redemption.

Therefore, all who have been sealed will be redeemed on the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; which is when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Therefore, those who have been given eternal life (an irrevocable gift of God) will never perish.

In order to NEVER PERISH, one must be given eternal life.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Therefore, at the moment in time when one believes, they ARE SEALED, they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and according to the Bible, they WILL NEVER PERISH, but see the day of redemption, the reason for their sealing.

Sixth, 1 Peter 1:23 says “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”

Therefore, those who have been born again or regenerated are of IMPERISHABLE SEED, which means they WILL NEVER PERISH, exactly what Jesus promised in John 10:28. (see points 1 and 3)

Seventh, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation, have their eternal life revoked, or that believers may indeed perish in the lake of fire.

We know that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for (1) TEACHING, for (2) reproof, for (3) correction, and for (4) training in righteousness". 2 Tim 3:16

If none of the verses above are FOR teaching, then which category do they apply to?

And, this is a question that no Arminian can answer. So they don't even try.
And, IF, any of the verses above are FOR teaching, then what, specifically, do they teach, if not eternal security?

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why do you think so incorrectly? Are you reacting emotionally, when being objective is way more accurate?

Free, I cannot really take you seriously, simply because you want to play with words.
I met one guy whose whole intent was to upset me, he said it was being hard on me.

His justification was I was a hypocrite and if I broke, he would be proven right.
This was actual persecution, saying a believer is not righteous, pure and clean, and
I will show you by being cruel to them. Praise the Lord, that He saw my witness this
way, because great is my reward.

I wish I could understand your real reason to repeat your perspective so often because
it is pointless if I fully understand what you are saying. Repetition does not make it any
more true.

And if you cannot answer the question about walking in the light as He is in the light,
then we have nothing really left to say. We are the people of the light, openness, truth,
honesty and love. If that is not you and the way you follow Jesus, God bless you, I wish
you well, but I know nothing else I can really share, He is our Saviour, our Lord, the one
who rescued us when we were far from Him, Amen.

As a simple note, the gospel and love is simple when you are cleansed, because you just
want to serve our Lord and see people healed and made whole, expressing love and joy
from their hearts. There is literally nothing better.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Imagine this

The people of God discussing Jesus with the lost. They claim so well they know it all, that they have arrived, but their hearts are cold, their aim is to provoke and annoy, to ridicule and upset, yet they say it is because they are following Him.

A false teacher leaves you with only destruction and put downs. Jesus came to heal, to give hope, to offer a path of life, to give friendship, to show what could be. He healed 10 lepers but only 1 returned.

So our witness will always fall on hard ground of hard hearts, centred of what they can get to get up the next rung of the ladder and not to spend time listening to the maker of the ladder and everything we have. His promises are promises of rewards, but His freedom is healing and forgiveness of hearts so we can walk without fear or defence from within. Amen

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,
There are lots of differences in this world, ways of talking, thinking, being.
I can believe in Jesus, in who He is and how He will react, or I can believe in something that is said and one aspect of the idea or message being expressed.

Let's just get to the point. Do you really believe what Jesus said?

We can in effect make an idol out of anything, and then centre everything else around it.

If you go rock climbing the rope that keeps you safe is there when things go wrong or you need a rest. It is not the point about the climb but helps reassure.

I disagree. The point when rock climbing is safety first.

So the promises are an encouragement, because they are something to look forward to, but they are not in themselves the reason for the walk.

I never said they were. But God's promises are not "something to look forward to, but rather, something to KNOW that you possess NOW.

So the prize for running a race is not primarily why you run. You run because you want, and you like it, the prize makes a race more important and more rewarding that one without a prize.

If you are comparing salvation to a prize, you couldn't be more wrong.

By definition, a prize is earned. And by biblical definition, salvation is by grace, not works therefore, not earned.

So it is possible to make everything hang on the promises, and literally destroy or ignore the whole purpose of a relationship with God and victory, and cleansing, and love and fellowship.

This just couldn't be more wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?
JLB

I just gave you 7 passages on eternal security, and all you can do is ignore all of them?

Well, that's just typical.

I already addressed your bogus question and why it is bogus. No one can be "removed from Christ", as you opine.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 won't let you make that claim.

So to claim that one can be "removed" is against the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why do you think so incorrectly? Are you reacting emotionally, when being objective is way more accurate?"

Free, I cannot really take you seriously, simply because you want to play with words.

Without any evidence, this is just so much distraction. Please provide a clear explanation of where and how I've "played with words".

Instead, I USE words to explain why your opinions are wrong, and why my view is correct. That's not playing with words. That's just how to debate and prove my position.

I met one guy whose whole intent was to upset me, he said it was being hard on me.

Oh, here we go again, these "some people".

His justification was I was a hypocrite and if I broke, he would be proven right.
This was actual persecution, saying a believer is not righteous, pure and clean, and
I will show you by being cruel to them. Praise the Lord, that He saw my witness this
way, because great is my reward.

I wish I could understand your real reason to repeat your perspective so often because
it is pointless if I fully understand what you are saying. Repetition does not make it any
more true.

What I repeat is eternal security. Yes, that does not make it "any more true", because the Bible says it is true.

And if you cannot answer the question about walking in the light as He is in the light, then we have nothing really left to say. We are the people of the light, openness, truth, honesty and love. If that is not you and the way you follow Jesus, God bless you, I wish you well, but I know nothing else I can really share, He is our Saviour, our Lord, the one who rescued us when we were far from Him, Amen.

I didn't know you had lodged a question regarding "walking in the light". What is your question.

 

[LightLoveHope]

There is a false belief that Jesus is with those who abandon Him.

Peter says such as these would have better not known Jesus.
Imagine a good friend of mine burns my house down, destroys my family, and then comes to me demanding I help them because once we were friends and agreed we had a future together.
The truth is nothing has been resolved so only a parting of the ways exist.

Now I am talking as a man, not a Holy righteous King who demands perfection and faith, alive and active, only a fool would believe this King will deny His declared will for His people and His enemies. Only those who are in Christ, actively, alive in the Holy Spirit have a future. This is the word of God.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Truth. Our only hope, is to break in sorrow before our King and submit to His will.
Time and again Paul prays that we will know His will and live a Holy life.

Of course sinners, blind and lost will have no clue, but then literally there position does
not matter, as they will never desire to know Gods heart and follow it.

 

[JLB777]

I just gave you 7 passages on eternal security, and all you can do is ignore all of them?

Since there is no such thing as eternal security mentioned in the Bible, how about just answering a simple question.


Do you believe a person who is in Christ, then is removed from Christ, still has eternal life?



JLB