Fellowship Far from the madding cessationists

[Anto9us]

This is like a charismatic safe house

There is so much arguing and attempted brow-beating by cessationists
I just want to get away from them sometimes and not hear their same-o same-o stuff about "that which is perfect"

I would like to designate four groups of Christians, and I think the Cessationists are the smallest group of the four

1. Cessationists - those who believe Tongues, Prophecy and Word of Knowledge have 'passed away' and have not been valid since the Apostolic age.

2. Charismatics within 'charismatic denominations', like Assembly of God, Pentecostal, etc.

3. Charismatics throughout all denominations, and non-denom churches, who have experienced Baptism of Holy Spirit and one or more of the gifts; but have remained in their original denomination. I am one - Methodist who got Baptism of Holy Spirit in college in mid-70's, amid an outpouring of Holy Ghost; I have been to charismatic services (yes, so designated) in Episcopal and Catholic churches.

4. Christians who do not speak in tongues themselves, or have any other charismatic gift, but do not hold a position that those gifts are no longer valid today. Those in this group can include those very knowledgeable about the gifts, to those completely unfamiliar with them. They could be Baptists who know good and well that at the Assembly of God Church down the block, some of their fellow Christians are going to be speaking in Tongues, Prophesying, and giving Word of Knowledge -- and they are okay with that, albeit they themselves may have no charismatic elements in their services. This is BY FAR the largest of the four groups -- #1 is the smallest (though quite vocal) and the 2's and 3's -- I could not estimate any percentage of total Christians comprised by 2 and 3; but it would have to include Oneness Pentecostals, who are not really "Nicene-kosher" according to CF rules.

 

[SkyWriting]

I could not estimate any percentage of total Christians comprised by 2 and 3; but it would have to include Oneness Pentecostals, who are not really "Nicene-kosher" according to CF rules.

Scripture speaks out against creeds which both add
on to the scriptures and are repeated in public
over and over.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.


King James Bible
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Anto9us]

Often there is confusion or muddling between the so-called "Sign Gifts" and the 3 particular Charismatic gifts subject to an eventual "passing away".

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1Cor 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

If we look at the totally separate passages, we see that Sign Gifts are Tongues and Healing, and that the fail/cease/vanish away gifts are Tongues, Prophecy and Word of Knowledge (I don't think anyone has an objection to saying it is WORD OF Knowledge, though Greek just says Gnosis.)

According to the Cessationists, the "gift" of 'Apostleship' also ceased when THE PERFECT (complete or mature) came...

These are my thoughts on what the Cessationists think, and in my experience, by far the majority of the Cessationists point to completion of new testament as that which is perfect, but not all.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I agree with your opening post. I find myself in the fourth category. I have never prophesied, spoken in tongues, healed anyone, or anything fancy. I started out in Assemblies of God and moved, eventually, to the Baptists.

This quote, here, bothers me:

...by far the majority of the Cessationists point to completion of new testament as that which is perfect, but not all.

The logic of it is that Christ was not that which is perfect, because Christ came and went, but prophecies and such continued. Christ is not that which is perfect, also because Christ will come again, long after such things ceased. Hence, they attribute a perfection to a book that they deny of the savior. That's a big problem. Calling the Bible perfect, and then debating that issue, is a gentleman's bet. That's not a problem. It's when our search for such perfection causes us to overlook Christ as the object of perfection in favor of something else that we have something that resembles an idolatry.

 

[Anto9us]

I was just passing on what they -- the cessationists -- say, nonaeroterraqueous. And I do see your point.

SkyWriting, I am not pushing the Creed on anyone, but rather pointing out what CF policy is, according to it the United Pentecostal (Oneness) people might not even be considered Christian.

I personally believe in both Apostle's and Nicene Creed, and do not consider even a weekly use of one "vain repetition" that the Lord warned of.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I was just passing on what they -- the cessationists -- say, nonaeroterraqueous. And I do see your point.

I know. What they say bothers me.

 

[Anto9us]

Bothers me too.

I would post a couple of the other 'reasons' cessationists give OTHER THAN the completed New Testament for being that which caused the three gifts to cease, but I can't remember them.

 

[Alithis]

Often there is confusion or muddling between the so-called "Sign Gifts" and

(First.congrats on finding the fellowship tab which fuuly insulates against debate leaving only agreeable conversation. )

mostly this is due to such an intent focus on THE GIFTS.. in place of the WORK these attributes of the Holy Spirit are given for.

 

[Alithis]

I was just passing on what they -- the cessationists -- say, nonaeroterraqueous. And I do see your point.

SkyWriting, I am not pushing the Creed on anyone, but rather pointing out what CF policy is, according to it the United Pentecostal (Oneness) people might not even be considered Christian.

I personally believe in both Apostle's and Nicene Creed, and do not consider even a weekly use of one "vain repetition" that the Lord warned of.

Re oneness : Only in that they appear to oppose trinity doctrine.. But trinity doctrine is just A doctrine . so that would not make them unchristian

 

[WESTOZZIE]

No need to go to war to defend tongues...just keep praying in tongues and rejoice that when you "pray in tongues your spirit prays, your mind is unfruitful"- 1 Cor 14:14
How wonderful to pray directly from your born again, recreated spirit person knowing that you have God's word on it...
If tongues is ONLY meant to be a known human language as they say.....then 1 Corinthians 14:14 tells us that when I pray in say...French(I don't know French)then my spirit is praying.
Fancy that?! Just by speaking in French to God my spirit is praying to God...wow?!!
But no....just being silly here.
When I pray in tongues my spirit prays....my understanding is unfruitful.

Also Jesus said(and the passage is contested) they shall speak with new tongues.
Have you ever looked up the word new in Greek here?

G2537
καινός
kainos
Thayer Definition:
1) new
1a) as respects form
1a1) recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
1b) as respects substance
1b1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

They shall speak New --recently made words---fresh words---recent words---unworn words---a new kind of words---unprecedented words--novel words, uncommon and unheard of words...according to Thayer.

 

[Anto9us]

Westozzie - that's good insight from the Greek for NEW

 

[Anto9us]

But trinity doctrine is just A doctrine . so that would not make them unchristian

In the world beyond this forum, I agree.

 

[lismore]

I would like to designate four groups of Christians, and I think the Cessationists are the smallest group of the four

Hello. Yes, probably. There are many people in many churches who are open to Spiritual Gifts in principle, perhaps not having experienced it but open.

From my own experience of AOG etc there might be another couple of groups.

1) People in Pentecostal/ Charismatic churches who have never been filled with the Spirit. I myself noticed a paucity in the practice and mention of Spiritual Gifts towards the end of my time in the AOG. Some Pentecostal churches could be seen as having a different worship/ teaching style than other churches rather than any greater evidence of Spiritual Gifts. Loud plastic poppy music, extrovert style sermon, odd teachings and books. Perhaps a phase the movement is going through?

2) People in Pentecostal/ Charismatic churches who are so obsessed with one or more gifts that they manage to repel people searching for them, or weaponized gifts. One relative I have, asks the same question every time I see her. 'Have you ever spoken in tongues?'. To which I invariably answer 'yes' and share my testimony. She was present when I was filled with the Spirit but invariably always asks and is so obsessed that every conversation about Christianity with anyone gravitates towards speaking in tongues. She likes calling people out/ambushing them in front of a group 'Have you never spoken in tongues?'. She likes throwing digs or cutting remarks in prayer meetings. To date the number of persons she has interested in the Gifts of the Spirit is 0.

Some 'Cessationists' are perhaps so hardened because they have encountered someone like this.

Spiritual gifts must operate in co-operation with the fruit of the Spirit. (I'm sure you perhaps agree) God Bless You

 

[Spirit of Pentecost]

Few people will try to defend a cessastionist view of the Gospel. I've watched videos where John MacArthur tries to do just that, but rather unconvincingly.

Sixty-five years ago, if any pastor, evangelist, missionary, or other clergyman experienced Pentecost and began to speak in other tongues, they were usually forced to withdrawal from their existing denomination if they weren't already involved in a traditional Pentecostal congregation. This all changed when the Charismatic movement swept through Christianity, starting in the early sixties. Almost all the mainline denominations today adhere to a theology that the gifts of the Spirit are still valid, even if they don't regularly (if ever) operate in them themselves.

The Charismatic movement had an influence on classical Pentecostalism, too. While cautiously supportive of the Charismatic movement, the failure of the group to enforce traditional Pentecostal taboos, such as dancing, drinking, watching TV, smoking, and limitations on outward attire, sent Pentecostals into an identify crisis. Instead of holding to what they had preach as Truth for decades, Pentecostals relaxed their view, and adjusted their teachings on what it meant to be Spirit-filled.

Recently, the Southern Baptist Convention changed their ordination policy that allows the ordination and usage of missionaries and evangelists that have a "private prayer language", or those that speak in tongues. They also stress the importance that no one missionary, evangelist, etc. should force their "prayer language" on any one in which they minister to.

I recall reading an internet article some time back that said speaking in tongues had become "vogue" in the Christian church today. It seems that while many classical Pentecostals aren't being filled as much as they once were, it seems that, overall, the church is experiencing a surge of believers that, after some time, begin to speak in tongues. While this certainly sounds good, it seems that these new converts aren't always seeking genuine Spirit infilling or conviction, but only the tongues. And tongues alone aren't power.

 

[Anto9us]

Few people will try to defend a cessastionist view of the Gospel.

The FEW can be quite VOCAL, though. There is in Controversial Theology a 42-page thread where Cessationists are trying to defend that view of the gospel.

I came after the "sweep through Christianity" of Charismatic experience. I was in college in the mid-70's -- other students got Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the majority remained within their denomination although some went to AoG, Pentecostal or non-denom that was charismatic.

Almost all the mainline denominations today adhere to a theology that the gifts of the Spirit are still valid, even if they don't regularly (if ever) operate in them themselves.

That's good.

 

[Deborah D]

The FEW can be quite VOCAL, though. There is in Controversial Theology a 42-page thread where Cessationists are trying to defend that view of the gospel.

I came after the "sweep through Christianity" of Charismatic experience. I was in college in the mid-70's -- other students got Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the majority remained within their denomination although some went to AoG, Pentecostal or non-denom that was charismatic.

That's good.

Actually, that thread is over 60 pages now.... I'm done with it because of Cessationists mocking the acts of God. It hurts my spirit to hear such mocking and unbelief.

 

[Deborah D]

Like some of you, I was in a (Southern) Baptist church for years. The rationale behind certain gifts ceasing never made sense to me even though I had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. You have to look at everything Paul said in 1 Cor.. 13. The part that always got me was verse 12--

For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
as I am fully known.
​

I don't know about you, but I have never FULLY known Jesus like I am fully known by Him, and I have a pretty close relationship with Him. I look forward to fully knowing Him!!!

I had commented on the Cessationist thread mentioned earlier that the 3 main gifts of the Spirit that God uses in my life are the ones Paul listed in 1 Cor. 13--prophecy, tongues and knowledge. I have tasted of these gifts, and I'm glad they haven't ceased!!! I can't imagine life without them!

Edit: Another snag for Cessatiolnism is that the New Testament wasn't complete and made available (meaning the Bible in its present form) to most people for hundreds of years. So, if the "complete" in 1 Cor. 13 means the Bible, when did the spiritual gifts in question cease? After the canon was complete? In which language? After the Bible began to be printed and widely distributed???

This view of what Paul said is so problematic because the implication is that once we have the Bible, we have complete knowledge of God and, therefore, we don't need the revelatory gifts. But there are still people groups who don't have a translation of the Bible in their language. So, has the "complete" come for them?

Also, some of us in the other thread pointed out that sometimes we need to hear from God about a specific situation not addressed in the Bible. Some cessationists posting said that speaking words of prophecy... amounts to adding to the Bible. That reasoning makes me shake my head.

 

[WESTOZZIE]

But there are still people groups who don't have a translation of the Bible in their language. So, has the "complete" come for them

Hi Deb, I would say yes, they are complete in Christ and Christ Jesus is complete in them . He is the Word made flesh in them. Better to only have the Spirit of Jesus than a head full of doctrines.

 

[Francis Drake]

Breath of fresh air. Thanks one and all.

Nni ouhx kih gidf aifrjfrj dljhof kjhhds ljld ndnn qouhyd khkuhd

Now who has the gift of interpretation, otherwise how can anyone say​

 

[Deborah D]

Hi Deb, I would say yes, they are complete in Christ and Christ Jesus is complete in them . He is the Word made flesh in them. Better to only have the Spirit of Jesus than a head full of doctrines.

I agree that we are "complete" in Christ on one level, but He is coming back again, and then we will know Him fully as we are fully known by Him, so there will not be any need for the revelatory gifts at that time. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying.