If Water Baptism Saves, Then Explain What Happened To Me!

[Thess]

First off sorry that you went through all that, and if you need a venting ear I am here, free to DM me. It makes more sense now that it didn't just come from you being baptized, but a whole slew of injustices done in your life. For that I'll be praying for your peace.

I could only address as much as you tell us and the topic, which was the water baptism equating to salvation. But one thing that would be helpful in the dialogue, is to first not make it hostile for conversation. It makes it feel like I'm already the enemy in the thread.

I appreciate this message, but you're not understanding. I'm fine! Our Almighty God has transformed me, as I have an actual R12-2 story to outline and fully detail. My transformation is expansive, it's legit. I've never had one "Christian" ever talk to me about their R12-2 experience. More evidence of illegitimacy, and I could go on and on regarding scriptures that have been given so we can test ourselves, our pastors, including entire churches.

The purpose of this thread is not for me to seek advice. It is to expose the false notion that we ought call ourselves "Christian's" because we have been baptized. This is a deadly notion that is not vehemently denounced in churches, thus millions are suffering because they believe that they have been saved, but their lifestyle proves that they are not. And that lifestyle comes with pain, a lot of pain.

What I am hoping to accomplish is to disgust people, literally make people sick with the gross details of my life that I have offered to get conversation going. I know that my words are harsh, and I know that they divide, but that is ONLY because I NEEDED SOMEONE TO DO THAT FOR ME! Look at my life of suffering. Wow, that is the shortest list imaginable by me, for I didn't even mention waking up on the freeway....because I sideswiped another car having fallen asleep at the wheel in a total drunken blitz. I was truly terrible!

I did not create this post because I hate people, rather, because I desperately love each of us. My concern is salvation. We need to wake up! So I am trying to rattle cages with the disgusting facts of my life that I am happy to use for us all to dissect; to use for our benefit.

As for being rude, that was my hope for how we talk to each other, here, in this forum. But anyone is allowed to use WHATEVER words and syllables they want to describe their own past, and the past treatment of others that demonstrates hypocrisy. My objective, here, is for all of us to learn and come together with basic understandings, understandings that we can build upon.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hmmmm. I would give it a thought, but there isn't any part of your message that gives me a reason to believe what you're believing. I can't believe you just because you feel that I should. This entire threat is filled with a lot of actual scripture. It's worth going over.

I think you misunderstand, I am not concerned with you believing what I believe. I shared a thought, with a guy who asked a question. If he doesn't appreciate the answer, fine... if he wanted Scripture to back up each word shared, he should have asked me and I would have provided it.

On that, there are a number of places where it says you "shall be saved." And seemingly places where it says we are saved.... usually the unlearned will grab one and pit it against the other, when we should take the time to reconcile the difference. And the difference is simply a progression, like I said in my first post. The Acts 15 letter to the gentiles doesn't tell us not to steal, it doesn't tell us to even love God, which is why that letter should not be viewed as a finish line, but rather, as a place to start. And lastly, in the prophecy about the law on the minds and hearts as part of the new covenant, we read:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (vs. 34) No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Notice how it says that when the law is put on the minds and hearts that there will no longer be a need to teach? That all will know the Lord? Do all know the Lord? No. Do we still have a need to teach? Yes. Therefore, this work isn't complete.

Water baptism is an act of obedience, it is an outward expression of that which has happened in the heart. It alone doesn't save because if it ALONE saved then there was no reason for messiah to die. Mark 16:16 isn't baptism alone, and "believes" has more depth in meaning than the English alone gives us. The Hebrew (and Jesus and the disciples were Jewish, so this matters) did not view "belief" as passive.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hmmmm. I would give it a thought, but there isn't any part of your message that gives me a reason to believe what you're believing. I can't believe you just because you feel that I should. This entire threat is filled with a lot of actual scripture. It's worth going over.

Couple of more things. I have posted Scripture but not what you want to hear, I guess. I posted a couple from Romans that show a progression.... trials and tribulations work perseverance and perseverance brings character, and character brings hope. I also mentioned the bible using the human life as an example of our spiritual growth... Isaiah and Paul both use this symbolism to show how our walk begins with "milk" and then progresses to soft food and then meat. TIME separates those things....

So your problem, whether you want to hear it or not, is simply that you believed a false narrative that you could say a little prayer and get wet and everything would be different for life. It can be, but it takes WORK which is usually what those who push the repeat after me prayer stand against. But as James said, "Faith without works is dead being alone."

Lastly, you started off with the line that there won't be arguing in your thread... but you have argued against anyone who posted something you didn't agree with. OK for you but not anyone else? Just asking for consistency here.

Be blessed... I hope you find what your looking for.

 

[Thess]

Couple of more things. I have posted Scripture but not what you want to hear, I guess. I posted a couple from Romans that show a progression.... trials and tribulations work perseverance and perseverance brings character, and character brings hope. I also mentioned the bible using the human life as an example of our spiritual growth... Isaiah and Paul both use this symbolism to show how our walk begins with "milk" and then progresses to soft food and then meat. TIME separates those things....

So your problem, whether you want to hear it or not, is simply that you believed a false narrative that you could say a little prayer and get wet and everything would be different for life. It can be, but it takes WORK which is usually what those who push the repeat after me prayer stand against. But as James said, "Faith without works is dead being alone."

Lastly, you started off with the line that there won't be arguing in your thread... but you have argued against anyone who posted something you didn't agree with. OK for you but not anyone else? Just asking for consistency here.

Be blessed... I hope you find what your looking for.

I must not have made myself clear. I don't mind if people exchange ideas; that's why we're here. I imagined that we would all understand that I'm talking about the silly name calling and senseless attacking that we see taking place at this forum. I'll do a better job of explaining next time.

As for your scripture references, I'll apologize now. I am dealing with a lot of posts, reading each of them and trying to remember each micro thread.

As I have been saying throughout, all I want to do is expose what is happening so that we can all get an understanding. We're living by a Secret Gospel.

 

[Ken Rank]

As I have been saying throughout, all I want to do is expose what is happening so that we can all get an understanding. We're living by a Secret Gospel.

I haven't read all of your posts so I would be interested in understanding what you see as a "secret gospel." See, my view of what the gospel is differs from most Christians anyway. I see a progression from Adam to the restoration of creation as being the "whole gospel" and it was known before messiah gave his life. The bible says Abraham heard the gospel, Israel at Sinai heard the gospel, and messiah preached the gospel before he was killed. So I believe that what we are living by today is a watered down 1/4 version of the gospel. But... share as you have time or cut and paste it into a message for me. The idea of living by a secret gospel really intrigues me and your definition is one I really would like to hear.

 

[truefiction1]

Can someone be genuinely saved, regenerated in the Spirit and later fall into sin and be lost?

Yes, because this possibility remains so long as there is a person who can choose between being saved, on one hand, or sinning on the other hand.

 

[Thess]

I haven't read all of your posts so I would be interested in understanding what you see as a "secret gospel." See, my view of what the gospel is differs from most Christians anyway. I see a progression from Adam to the restoration of creation and being the "whole gospel" and it was known before messiah gave his life. The bible says Abraham heard the gospel, Israel at Sinai heard the gospel, and messiah preached the gospel before he was killed. So I believe that what we are living by today is a watered down 1/4 version of the gospel. But... share as you have time or cut and paste it into a message for me. The idea of living by a secret gospel really intrigues me and your definition is one I really would like to hear.

Oh my gosh. I actually reached someone. Yes, sir. I would love to share with you this Secret Gospel. That is exactly and precisely what this thread is about. Secret Gospels are just an altered gospel that allows us, humans, to live however we want. We have the basic truth in the corner of our minds, but we deny those truth's because we are really spending our time looking at porn, etc. We're not "slaves". Come on! How many people in a single church, if you asked them to describe their R12-2 experience, you'd get the deer in the headlights look. If you asked the entire church to tell of the last thing they "tested", how they did the testing, what the testing was and what the results were, they'd give you the same look. How many Christians in a single church can honestly say that their life, since "receiving Christ" has consistely climbed in character and developing a Christ-like mind? How many people can honestly say that they witness, and are actively talking to people, making use of every opportunity to talk about Jesus? I don't know of one person like this. You see? Any hypocrite is living the Secret Gospel, for they are hiding the truth about who they really are. I don't care what a person says, show me your phone. Show me your tablets and laptops. Give me the keys to your house. That's the challenge, can a person demonstrate their faith. I know of no one who is fully transparent....not one, and that's a scary thing to think about.

When I speak of Gospel, I am quoting Paul when he says that anyone who delivers a Gospel other than the one he, Paul delivered, that it was no gospel at all. This too, should frighten us, for look at how we negotiate, fight and argue with each other about who's right and who's wrong. Man, that is such a bad indictment....against US! We are fools to the world! The fact that we berate each other in places like this....it's a tragedy. So we need to figure out how to be of one mind, of one accord so that we can begin loving each other.

 

[Thess]

Yes, because this possibility remains so long as there is a person who can choose between being saved, on one hand, or sinning on the other hand.

I hear you. Do you feel that Romans 7 teaches that it is the "other" person that is doing the sinning, and not the righteous man? Paul says, "It's that thing over there that is sinning. It's not me!" It's a beautiful passage to think about.

 

[Ken Rank]

Oh my gosh. I actually reached someone. Yes, sir. I would love to share with you this Secret Gospel. That is exactly and precisely what this thread is about. Secret Gospels are just an altered gospel that allows us, humans, to live however we want. We have the basic truth in the corner of our minds, but we deny those truth's because we are really spending our time looking at porn, etc. We're not "slaves". Come on! How many people in a single church, if you asked them to describe their R12-2 experience, you'd get the deer in the headlights look. If you asked the entire church to tell of the last thing they "tested", how they did the testing, what the testing was and what the results were, they'd give you the same look. How many Christians in a single church can honestly say that their life, since "receiving Christ" has consistely climbed in character and developing a Christ-like mind? How many people can honestly say that they witness, and are actively talking to people, making use of every opportunity to talk about Jesus? I don't know of one person like this. You see? Any hypocrite is living the Secret Gospel, for they are hiding the truth about who they really are. I don't care what a person says, show me your phone. Show me your tablets and laptops. Give me the keys to your house. That's the challenge, can a person demonstrate their faith. I know of no one who is fully transparent....not one, and that's a scary thing to think about.

When I speak of Gospel, I am quoting Paul when he says that anyone who delivers a Gospel other than the one he, Paul delivered, that it was no gospel at all. This too, should frighten us, for look at how we negotiate, fight and argue with each other about who's right and who's wrong. Man, that is such a bad indictment....against US! We are fools to the world! The fact that we berate each other in places like this....it's a tragedy. So we need to figure out how to be of one mind, of one accord so that we can begin loving each other.

It was Paul who wrote that Abraham heard the gospel and that Israel heard the good news at Sinai. Short (very short) version of part my testimony. When I was seeking I was in a bar on the Jersey shore with a friend who went to church. I knew that, so I asked him about Jesus. He spent an hour at the bar laying it all out as he understood it... while downing 6 beers and a shot. Not sure how many he had before I asked, but when I had heard I could handle about Jesus at that point, he was stumbling. He then grabbed the hand of a woman who he wasn't married to and we both knew where he was going and what he was going to do so I asked... "What about all the beer and the women?" And he let her hand go... walked back over to me, smiled and said, "Ah man, that's the best part! Jesus forgives me of anything I do wrong!" And then he left with the chick.

God does forgive but He also expects us to, "go and sin no more." Not that we won't slip up from time to time (we haven't been perfected yet) but we are to strive for perfection not make excuses as to why we can continue living as we did before we met God. But you know all that.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[truefiction1]

I appreciate this message, but you're not understanding. I'm fine! Our Almighty God has transformed me, as I have an actual R12-2 story to outline and fully detail. My transformation is expansive, it's legit. I've never had one "Christian" ever talk to me about their R12-2 experience. More evidence of illegitimacy, and I could go on and on regarding scriptures that have been given so we can test ourselves, our pastors, including entire churches.

The purpose of this thread is not for me to seek advice. It is to expose the false notion that we ought call ourselves "Christian's" because we have been baptized. This is a deadly notion that is not vehemently denounced in churches, thus millions are suffering because they believe that they have been saved, but their lifestyle proves that they are not. And that lifestyle comes with pain, a lot of pain.

What I am hoping to accomplish is to disgust people, literally make people sick with the gross details of my life that I have offered to get conversation going. I know that my words are harsh, and I know that they divide, but that is ONLY because I NEEDED SOMEONE TO DO THAT FOR ME! Look at my life of suffering. Wow, that is the shortest list imaginable by me, for I didn't even mention waking up on the freeway....because I sideswiped another car having fallen asleep at the wheel in a total drunken blitz. I was truly terrible!

I did not create this post because I hate people, rather, because I desperately love each of us. My concern is salvation. We need to wake up! So I am trying to rattle cages with the disgusting facts of my life that I am happy to use for us all to dissect; to use for our benefit.

As for being rude, that was my hope for how we talk to each other, here, in this forum. But anyone is allowed to use WHATEVER words and syllables they want to describe their own past, and the past treatment of others that demonstrates hypocrisy. My objective, here, is for all of us to learn and come together with basic understandings, understandings that we can build upon.

Very few people, if any, regardless of what they had told you about your need to wake up and change, could have been able to convince you. During those times in which you were lost in sin, your soul was impenetrable to Divine Truth, and it is God alone, Whose grace had been working around you, both in your external environment and within you, that gradually led you into a state in which you could begin to hear, and to see the Light

It's true that there are many "so-called" Christians who aren't engaged in genuine repentance, which is what keeps one in Communion with God, in the Holy Spirit, and therefore being continuously transformed by God's uncreated energy (grace). So, your concern for their enlightenment certainly has merit, and is understandable. But spiritual growth always takes some time, and as God is patient and long-suffering towards us, in our sins, we too must also learn to become patient, in regards to both our own conversion and growth as well as that of others.
.

 

[Thess]

It was Paul who wrote that Abraham heard the gospel and that Israel heard the good news at Sinai. Short (very short) version of part my testimony. When I was seeking I was in a bar on the Jersey shore with a friend who went to church. I knew that, so I asked him about Jesus. He spent an hour at the bar laying it all out as he understood it... while downing 6 beers and a shot. Not sure how many he had before I asked, but when I had heard I could handle about Jesus at that point, he was stumbling. He then grabbed the hand of a woman who he wasn't married to and we both knew where he was going and what he was going to do so I asked... "What about all the beer and the women?" And he let her hand go... walked back over to me, smiled and said, "Ah man, that's the best part! Jesus forgives me of anything I do wrong!" And then he left with the chick.

God does forgive but He also expects us to, "go and sin no more." Not that we won't slip up from time to time (we haven't been perfected yet) but we are to strive for perfection not make excuses as to why we can continue living as we did before we met God. But you know all that.

Blessings.
Ken

That is a truly remarkable story, and I submit that this is the same general story that we all have. For example, my cousins were raised by my uncle to not have, share or show love for others. That said, one of those cousins is a missionary yet this cousin and his entire family of preachers, elders, preachers kids and wives, have rejected myself and my mother. They rejected my mother about twenty years ago. So here we have missionaries that are loving others before loving their own DNA. We all live this wild, crazy hidden gospel....until we realize what's happening, wake up and work very hard to escape it.

 

[truefiction1]

I hear you. Do you feel that Romans 7 teaches that it is the "other" person that is doing the sinning, and not the righteous man? Paul says, "It's that thing over there that is sinning. It's not me!" It's a beautiful passage to think about.

What I see in Romans 7 is that Paul is describing human nature after the fall, which has an insurmountable inclination towards sinning. But grace, which is the uncreated energy of God being brought to us by the Holy Spirit, is our strength to overcome our fallen nature, so that God's good works can be done both in us and through us, into the world.

 

[Thess]

What explains a lot of this insanity is the understanding of "hardened hearts". Or, I should say the attempt to understand this doctrine. I see clearly how hardened hearts operate in the Gospel of Mark (just did a study on this work), and in fact, I can see how by God hardening Peter's heart, this actually saved Peters life so that he could continue to preach after the resurrection. Unbelievable notion! All of their hearts were hardened at specific times to ensure that they would not have been slain as Christ was being led away. Everyone abandoned Jesus, and they had to otherwise Christianity would have died. Amazing.

It it the hardened heart that allows us to believe that things are fine when they're truly not. Can you, the reader, imagine waking up and realizing that your heart has been hardened? Look, if that exact scenario can happen to me, and IT DID, is it possible that it could be happening to you? All I ask is that you examine your heart. Is your conscious clear? Every day. Is your conscious clear?

 

[Thess]

What I see in Romans 7 is that Paul is describing human nature after the fall, which has an insurmountable inclination towards sinning. But grace, which is the uncreated energy of God being brought to us by the Holy Spirit, is our strength to overcome our fallen nature, so that God's good works can be done both in us and through us, into the world.

[Rom 7:20, 23 NLT] 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ... 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.

This needs to be pounded into our heads. It is liberating and it helps us to get over ourselves. It helps us to get over the sins of others against us. These passages makes forgiveness a breeze, no struggle at all. We need to really think about these passages, for they are key enablers that allow ourselves to move forward regardless of what we've done in the past. These passages allow us to stand tall, always, even if we have done something wrong, for we understand the problem, we fix it confidently and move along, just as we would hope any good leader would exemplify. I love these passages, for they have completely revolutionized my thinking.

 

[truefiction1]

[Rom 7:20, 23 NLT] 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ... 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.

This needs to be pounded into our heads. It is liberating and it helps us to get over ourselves. It helps us to get over the sins of others against us. These passages makes forgiveness a breeze, no struggle at all. We need to really think about these passages, for they are key enablers that allow ourselves to move forward regardless of what we've done in the past. These passages allow us to stand tall, always, even if we have done something wrong, for we understand the problem, we fix it confidently and move along, just as we would hope any good leader would exemplify. I love these passages, for they have completely revolutionized my thinking.

This is good. But do you accept personal responsibility for the sins you presently commit, repent of them and own up to them in your prayers to God, which you offer in His presence?

 

[Thess]

Very few people, if any, regardless of what they had told you about your need to wake up and change, could have been able to convince you. During those times in which you were lost in sin, your soul was impenetrable to Divine Truth, and it is God alone, Whose grace had been working around you, both in your external environment and within you, that gradually led you into a state in which you could begin to hear, and to see the Light

It's true that there are many "so-called" Christians who aren't engaged in genuine repentance, which is what keeps one in Communion with God, in the Holy Spirit, and therefore being continuously transformed by God's uncreated energy (grace). So, your concern for their enlightenment certainly has merit, and is understandable. But spiritual growth always takes some time, and as God is patient and long-suffering towards us, in our sins, we too must also learn to become patient, in regards to both our own conversion and growth as well as that of others.
.

Thanks for the post, but i'm not sure of what it's really about. I say that because you're not describing my life or situation at all. What your describing sounds easy. But for me, I cried like a child, begged like a child, tears streaming down my face as I cried out to God that He would fix me. Drunk, always so drunk...I hated my life and myself and truly, truly begged Him to fix me. This went on for twenty years! I need to be patient? I'm sorry my friend, but you have blanket ideas about how things work and they aren't accurate in relationship to me or anyone I've ever known. I've never seen anyone become transformed. Not one. No one has an R12-2 story to tell. It almost seems like your faith system is a dream, so easy like it's a fairy tale. My story doesn't go like that at all. I have been beaten with garden hoses by my own parents....and I should be patient? I needed God to help me, to give me some confidence, since "confidence comes from the lord". Um....no it doesn't. My life proves that confidence does not come from the lord. What a terrible thing to teach. So you can see that things aren't always what you might think.

 

[Thess]

This is good. But do you accept personal responsibility for the sins you presently commit, repent of them and own up to them in your prayers to God, which you offer in His presence?

100%. And more than this, I've asked God to heap upon my shoulders the sins that others have committed because of my leading them down specific paths. I have caused harm to so, so many people. Anyone who knows anything about me or against me, I will listen and fix the problem. God has no use for cowards. Revelations teaches that cowards will not enter the Kingdom....He means it.

 

[Thess]

This is good. But do you accept personal responsibility for the sins you presently commit, repent of them and own up to them in your prayers to God, which you offer in His presence?

In fact, people can discuss any part of my past in open public, just as I have opened myself at the begging of the thread. I am an open book precisely because I take responsibility. No one can say what I say and do what I do and not be responsible. This is the whole point....to be honest and not live according to a Hidden, Secret Gospel.

 

[Thess]

This is good. But do you accept personal responsibility for the sins you presently commit, repent of them and own up to them in your prayers to God, which you offer in His presence?

But wait a second. I'm sure you missed my point. The point is: How many billions are there in the world today? 9? If it's 9 billion, then Paul is teaching that there are really 18 billion. We all have at least two personalities. One personality sins and the other personality is righteous and holy. "Who will save me from this wretched body of death". That is referring to the other law at work within us, the one that Paul hates and says that it is "not him". This is huge! It helps us to understand problems in others. This understanding is the very gateway to grace, a grace that God understands. God understands that we did not choose this sin nature. No way! It's not my or your fault! He knows this! God always has a tender heart for us all, for we are all impacting one another to move both in good ways and bad ways. We can motive others into health or into abuse. We have all been taught evil by others, for if we had not been taught, we would not have employed it ourselves. God understands this which is why we are warned about leading others into sin. The reward for doing such deals with millstones, necks and water. Those whom are taught lives of sin are heavily understood by God, oh man, and woe to the ones whom led him astray. This is a catastrophe, and it's rampant.

 

[truefiction1]

Thanks for the post, but i'm not sure of what it's really about. I say that because you're not describing my life or situation at all. What your describing sounds easy. But for me, I cried like a child, begged like a child, tears streaming down my face as I cried out to God that He would fix me. Drunk, always so drunk...I hated my life and myself and truly, truly begged Him to fix me. This went on for twenty years! I need to be patient? I'm sorry my friend, but you have blanket ideas about how things work and they aren't accurate in relationship to me or anyone I've ever known. I've never seen anyone become transformed. Not one. No one has an R12-2 story to tell. It almost seems like your faith system is a dream, so easy like it's a fairy tale. My story doesn't go like that at all. I have been beaten with garden hoses by my own parents....and I should be patient? I needed God to help me, to give me some confidence, since "confidence comes from the lord". Um....no it doesn't. My life proves that confidence does not come from the lord. What a terrible thing to teach. So you can see that things aren't always what you might think.

For how many years did Mary of Egypt cry out to God from her solitary desert home to fix her? Do you even know? Have you ever even heard of Mary of Egypt, or of her sins and struggles against them? Fairy tales don't involve things that are real, like the sufferings and sacrifices of martyrs, both living martyrs and those who are tortured and killed for their Love of Christ. Do you think it'll be easy for me, when they come to silence the voice of God in me through the destruction of my body? I don't think so. But by the Holy Spirit I'll be able to endure til the end, no matter what they may do to me. I never said being a Christian is easy, I only shared a part of what Scripture teaches about God's grace working in and through us. R12-2 stories are abundant, from what I've experienced, seen, and heard, and they often involve people who were great sinners, like Moses the Black, who was a murderer, adulterer, and robber. I was no better than such a person prior to my conversion. So when you say you've never seen anyone transformed, or that no one has an R12-2 story to tell, I don't understand how you can say this as if you really believe it.